'Trails' versus 'Jumps'

[rednightmare]

Got this quote from another thread:

seems you have some pretty nice land to build on, awesome that more people are building real trails, not just jumps.

and thought it might an interesting topic to explore..

I'm genuinely interested in the difference between 'trails' and 'jumps'. Seems like the trails scene these days, especially in BMX, is very much about aesthetics (how the jumps look) and lots of work goes into making everything extremely smooth, with super-wide take-offs and landings. Lots of work goes into the building and maintenance and riding seems to be mostly put off until the lines are completely finished. Things like plastic sheet to cover jumps and chains to stop others from riding are commonplace.

So a few questions for the trails guys out there:

1. Why spend so much time making your trails look good? function over form surely?
2. Why not spend more time riding while your building instead of putting it off until everything is dialled?
3. Do plastic sheets help protect jumps in anything other than torrential rain?
4. If you build on public land, why chain jumps off?
5. Why do most BMXers have a beef with MTB dirt jumpers?
6. Why do trails these days seem to have less actual jumps and more rollers?
7. Do you really need to build that 270 berm?

Not aiming to start a bunfight or anything, but curious to know what others' thoughts are.

 

[Staunch]

Ignore the lazy formatting, but

1 - Pride in work. Might as well put an extra 10 hours into something that's already take 90 to make it look worthwhile and impressive. Good trails are like art to some.
2 - Because sometimes, like winter, you just can't ride it properly. Even if it's not winter, if you're watering down jumps/berms to compact, rolling speed will be slower and it'll be harder/maybe impossible to ride everything cleanly
3 - Erosion is a cunt and even enough drizzles will start to cause run off and ruts
4 - No dig no ride, simple as that. Kids will come along, try to ride the jumps, case and ruin lips and then fuck off again with no concern for helping out
5 - BMX jumps are steeper and harder to do cleanly on MTB, hence a lot of MTBers would be casing BMX jumps. If they're not willing to fix it, same as point 5.
6 - For speed, if you land funny after a trick you need to be able to pump back some speed to still clear the next jumps. Also because it's easier to build a longer trail that way.
7 - No, but it's fucking awesome. Edit: Actually, sometimes yes. If you ride brakeless BMX it might be the only way to scrub off speed for the next jump

 

[sanderscain]

Plus another point about that 270 berm is that it may not be needed the same way that 6 foot double may not be 'needed'. It comes down to want rather than need people build jumps because they're fun to ride. The same way people build a 270 berm because it's fun to ride. hahah.

 

[bikesarefun]

As a starting point, the point of "trails" vs "jumps", from my understanding, is that the latter is often just a straight line of jumps, whereas the former is a more of a technical adventure with twists, turns, and other creative ideas.

MTBers tend to be happy to pile up a bunch of rocks, pallets, and other random shit to make a dirty huck on a DH track. It's lazy, and often pretty ugly.



1. Why spend so much time making your trails look good? function over form surely?

Pride in work. Same kind of reason that cars don't all look like a 1994 Mitsubishi Magna.



2. Why not spend more time riding while your building instead of putting it off until everything is dialled?

A lot of people dial in their trails feature-by-feature, which means riding before a line is finished.



3. Do plastic sheets help protect jumps in anything other than torrential rain?

Yes. They keep idiots off the jumps (for example people are less likely to climb up a plastic-covered jump).



4. If you build on public land, why chain jumps off?

Again, to keep idiots off the jumps. Just because jumps are on public land doesn't inherently mean they're public jumps. It just means that one person made illegal use of public land, and is preventing other people from enjoying the spoils of that illegal use of public land.


5. Why do most BMXers have a beef with MTB dirt jumpers?

Because often MTBers (especially DHers in my experience) are a bunch of fuckwits who come from a culture where it's fin to turn up, shred a trail someone else built, and leave.



6. Why do trails these days seem to have less actual jumps and more rollers?

Rollers are fun, and assist in speed management.


7. Do you really need to build that 270 berm?

Yes.

 

[rednightmare]

So I do understand the frustration with MTBers and jumps or trails if you like. We do come from a background where 95% of the people just rock up and ride while a dedicated few actually go about building tracks and organising working bees etc. That being said, I don't think we should all be tarred with the same brush, some of us are responsible and do respect the hard work that's been put in by the builders. Adding to that, there are no doubt countless dickheads on BMX bikes that case landings without fixing them up, don't water the jumps before riding etc. etc. It's not just about wheel size IMO...

Taking pride in your work is important, but some of the stuff I've seen at trails (e.g. super smooth return tracks, a massive and very smooth ramp used just to wash off speed after the last jump in the set) seem to be borderline obsessive, especially since the examples I gave were built on public land and got dozed months later. Respect if people want to put the effort in though.

On the subject of rollers, I have heard (maybe on here?) that they are also used to prevent MTBers from hitting jumps, the bigger wheel size making it harder to pump and get speed off them. Personally, I'd rather another jump instead but not always do-able.

Some more questions if anyone's interested:

1. Would pit-style jumps work on a slight downhill slope (with landings at the same height as take-offs) or are step-downs more feasible?
2. Are suicide no-handers cool again?
3. Why ride brake-less?

 

[Ultra Lord]

Regarding smooth trails, it doesn't take much effort. Watering can, metal rake and a shovel to compress the loose top layer and BAM! Smooth trails. It serves a purpose with Bmx when most of us run high pressure, it rolls faster and they feel better.

1. I always build the down ramp higher than the up ramp regardless of trail gradient, and digging out in between the jumps is an easy way to gain ramp height, just watch water buildup.

2. No

3. My Bmx is brakeless because I lost the mounts. I got used to it and don't miss them anymore. It's deffinately quieter, and has taught me to be smoother.

 

[singlespeedfreeride]

well, the OP is quoting me, so I will explain what I was on about;

trails:



smooth, manicured jumps, berms, rollers, built with an emphasis on flow and stylish riding, requires a lot of skill just to get through the line, if you can even do a simple trick like a turndown or 3 on these lines, you are the man. every line and spot is 100% unique, and it is a representation of how the builder interpreted the terrain, and what they are about when they hop on a bike.

https://vimeo.com/98970832

dirt jumps:



a straight line of jumps, often on flat ground. usually a public spot that is left untarped, weathered and created with no imagination or creativity. no berms or rollers or interesting hips and features. pretty much just trick oriented jumps in a line for gyro rats to practice the triple flip double whip turndown flairs over.


my trails look good because a squared up lip thats been slapped and buttered until its rock solid takes less dirt and also resists erosion a lot more, I will sometimes take a whole day to slap a lip in to make sure theres no bumps or soft spots. it is a spot im proud to call my own. Would a tradesmen be proud of shitty workmanship?

I have defected to bmx and most of the time, mtbers are hated for the very questions you just asked! "why should I bother tarping the jumps? why can't i ride your hand built spot without digging? why do you need to make it neat and squared off?"

Imagine you spent months and months building something for your own enjoyment, for you and the friends helping you to get away and have some fun in the woods, you haven't ridden your bike more than a few times all winter and half of summer because you have been building in preparation for next season for almost a year. Now some total stranger rocks up, doesn't bother even lifting a shovel, and has a ride, where you haven't even had the chance to do so. you would be pretty pissed off about that, wouldn't you? now that guy goes and tells his mates about these sweet trails he found, and they rock up and start riding. What does a builder do to stop them fucking up his own work? chains them off. No dig, no ride. Sometimes these people are perceived as salty, bitter killjoys, but they are the most down to earth people you will meet in the scene. Don't be a dick, and maybe they will let you join the crew and after a bit of digging, they'll let you ride once all the work is done for the afternoon. mountain bikers in general, not all but a large percentage, have this thing in their head that they can just show up and ride with minimal effort put in. I don't care what size your wheels are, act like a tosser, and i'll tell you to fuck off.

and yes, making strange features like 270 berms, sharkfins, strange and unique hips are what trail building is about! have some imagination, build that crazy thing you dreamed up and be stoked when you ride it and it feels as good as you imagined. straight jumps get boring after a while, where snaking your way down a line gives you some variety, something different.

maybe I'm just bitter, but man, I haven't ridden trails in over a year because I've been building some from nothing. why should you ride them before I can?

oh and if you have ever ridden castle cove, you would know that mtbers make their jumps a hell of a lot steeper. bmx riders actually dont have suspension to soak up the big buck that is always at the top of mtb lips, as mtbers use a radius, bmx jumps have a smaller radius down the bottom, which then flattens out, which makes for a very predictable, safe lip.

 

[Laurie01]

someone buy singlespeedfreeride a beer.. everything you just said is absolutely spot on.

 

[bikesarefun]

oh and if you have ever ridden castle cove, you would know that mtbers make their jumps a hell of a lot steeper. bmx riders actually dont have suspension to soak up the big buck that is always at the top of mtb lips, as mtbers use a radius, bmx jumps have a smaller radius down the bottom, which then flattens out, which makes for a very predictable, safe lip.

No. No. No.

Constant radius is the standard for MTB and BMX. You might recall that the use of radius measurement tools at Castle Cove came about following input from a certain crazy Italian BMXican.

 

[singlespeedfreeride]

No. No. No.

Constant radius is the standard for MTB and BMX. You might recall that the use of radius measurement tools at Castle Cove came about following input from a certain crazy Italian BMXican.

I was taught to shape them to flatten out by a builder from a certain very highly regarded trails spot thats using techniques passed down from trails like posh and catty, people that have been building for 30 years. Pretty sure those guys know what they are doing.

Have you ever ridden a bmx?

 

[bikesarefun]

I was taught to shape them to flatten out by a builder from a certain very highly regarded trails spot thats using techniques passed down from trails like posh and catty, people that have been building for 30 years. Pretty sure those guys know what they are doing.

Have you ever ridden a bmx?

Yes I have.

I'll save you the lesson in physics. You'll learn over time.

 

[g-fish]

Oh you guys

 

[singlespeedfreeride]

Yes I have.

I'll save you the lesson in physics. You'll learn over time.

Yeah its pretty simple, if all your curve is at the bottom of the lip you can pump as hard as you can, and your trajectory will be constant, it also lets you pull back off the lip without the lip bucking your back wheel, because on a constant radius your front wheel is off the ground, while your back wheel is still travelling up a curve, this causes your nose dip down off the lip, this makes for a unpredictable lip.

Notice how many people get sent over the hangers on lips shaped with a constant radius. We have never had that issue with a slight flat spot at the top, and it feels very safe on jimps that throw you far.

You ride mtb so your suspension effectively gives you that flat spot at the top when your fork compresses.

 

[bikesarefun]

Yeah its pretty simple, if all your curve is at the bottom of the lip you can pump as hard as you can, and your trajectory will be constant, it also lets you pull back off the lip without the lip bucking your back wheel, because on a constant radius your front wheel is off the ground, while your back wheel is still travelling up a curve, this causes your nose dip down off the lip, this makes for a unpredictable lip.

Notice how many people get sent over the hangers on lips shaped with a constant radius. We have never had that issue with a slight flat spot at the top, and it feels very safe on jimps that throw you far.

You ride mtb so your suspension effectively gives you that flat spot at the top when your fork compresses.

Again, no. Because: physics.

Basically, unless you're talking about a flat region that's a bike length or more, you'll actually start to unweight and launch from the point at which the curvature backs off. So there'll be a portion of the lip at the top that isn't really being used. HOWEVER: that might be a smart thing in terms of keeping lips nice and square at the top. Because there's minimal force being put through the lip top edge, it'll be less likely to crumble over time.

Most of the lips I build end up with a flat spot at the top anyway because they get ridden before they're rock hard. Basically just means the lip rides like the top few inches isn't there; hence lip will feel mellower than it looks from a distance.

 

[rabatt]

oh hey guyz!

rednightmare, Trails are more about digging, hanging out with mates and doing whips then anything else, most of the year here it's too wet to ride and too cold and dark to dig so we build stupid things to keep us entertained, such as 270berms/roller lines back to the top/pizza ovens... if you rode trails you will understand.

But enduro is what all the cool kids do now.

don't ride trails, its not cool, no one does it.