Trump..... (The Sophistry Thread)

johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yeah, just read it on SMH. I couldn’t see the Russians being stupid enough to try anything on such an obvious item.
 
scblack

scblack

Leucocholic
moorey said:
The majority of ‘Democrats’ are no more moral than Republicans, they are just more gutless and less ruthless, as a rule.
Until more progressives are elected into the Democratic party, nothing is really going to change. That is starting to happen, and is really the only silver lining I can see in the Drumf presidency.
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What is a "progressive'?

Left leaning people have been chucking this term around of late. What does it actually mean? And what "progress" would we see from more of them?
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I think it’s more so a term that is relative to conservativism. The idea being conservatives look to tradition but progressives look to newer ideas. Im not 100% sure of all that but I think that’s the basis of it.

It’s clearly outdated as a term, just like left and right are outdated terms b
 
pink poodle

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
It is possible to have conservative and progressive people across the spectrum of left to right. Progressive is quite often misused. I think @johnny is on track. A convenient example would be a comparison between Tony Abbott (an iconic conservative - aversion to economic risk, traditional morals/values, rejection of new ideas/knowledge) and Malcolm Turnbull (progressive - open to new ideas/knowledge, a little more economically adventurous, modern morals/values), marriage equality being a key illustration. Of course I'm referring more to the Malcom we were sold years ago rather than the representative he currently is.

The left to right line is old hat, the matrix is in and better reflects modern perspective.
 
scblack

scblack

Leucocholic
It is a term that Labor have used pretty extensively for a few years now. In the context they have generally used it, there are ZERO new ideas attached to the term.

Hence my question - does it actually mean any farken thing?

So you guys are saying that someone who targets "change" is a progressive. Change does not necessarily mean progress, that's a value judgement. And in the context its mostly bandied about, its quite meaningless.
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yeah, agreed, I think it’s pretty meaningless as well. It’s just another way of saying conservative and liberal, which again, over simplify the complex reality just as left and right do as labels.
 
Tubbsy

Tubbsy

Packin' a small bird
Staff member
Progressive doesn't mean anything, just like the term 'Family Values' doesn't mean anything.

All these sorts of terms, right-wing, left-wing, progressive, liberal, etc - sure they have definitions, but the political usage is more about trying to persuade voters to align themselves with one of these loose concepts and then join their 'team'. It benefits the establishment in particular to get people to believe that issues and policies need to be aligned with one side over another, rather than judging each policy and politician on individual merits.
 
moorey

moorey

call me Mia
I disagree, in that it’s a term that people who generally fall into the democratic cohort, but reject the establishment and corporatization, in favour of a more socialist agenda, as in, for society and the people.
My interpretation of it is that it encompasses change, and embraces science, technology and social advancement, rather than tradition.
I agree it’s a very convoluted word, and it’s meaning has gone through a lot of changes, but when I refer to it, this is my interpretation.
 
moorey

moorey

call me Mia
Tubbsy said:
Progressive doesn't mean anything, just like the term 'Family Values' doesn't mean anything.

All these sorts of terms, right-wing, left-wing, progressive, liberal, etc - sure they have definitions, but the political usage is more about trying to persuade voters to align themselves with one of these loose concepts and then join their 'team'. It benefits the establishment in particular to get people to believe that issues and policies need to be aligned with one side over another, rather than judging each policy and politician on individual merits.
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I think that someone identifying as progressive is generally more pragmatic than that, and is equally critical of left/right/liberal/libertarian etc, based on the issue at hand, rather than the overall ideology.
 
pink poodle

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Unfortunately the misuse devalues, but it does not render the term meaningless. It is also dated and that is more the issue.

I would suggest that the ALP are currently a responsive party, not progressive. Their policy seems mostly driven by a response to the government or population rather than based on ideals and core values. How else can one rationalise their position on mandatory indefinite detention for asylum seekers? I do think your misuse of the word "ZERO" dismisses it's value and impact. They have had a few new ideas over the last few years, but more so in the immediate post Howard era.
 
johnny

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
No US president has ever colluded the way I colluded. I am the greatest colluded ever. Ever!
 
moorey

moorey

call me Mia
johnny said:
No US president has ever colluded the way I colluded. I am the greatest colluded ever. Ever!
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There was no meeting. No collusion!
There was a meeting, I didn’t know about it. No collusion!
There was a meeting, I approved it. No collusion.
Even if there was Collusion, collusion isn’t a crime.
Hillary are a baby’s face, why is no one talking about that!
 
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