Trump..... (The Sophistry Thread)

[hifiandmtb]

No doubt.

But the precedents this shit is setting for stripping rights of women is deeply deeply disturbing.

The way I see this:

1. Merica. People carry guns.
2. There's this weird self defense law which says you can shoot someone who's not shooting at you & you are all good, self defense 'nall.
3. Which means if you attack someone, there's a chance you'll get shot at.

AFAIK, she's being charged because this was a reasonable outcome from her actions.

Crazy, but a reasonable outcome that she should have considered.

 

[Haakon]

The way I see this:

1. Merica. People carry guns.
2. There's this weird self defense law which says you can shoot someone who's not shooting at you & you are all good, self defense 'nall.
3. Which means if you attack someone, there's a chance you'll get shot at.

AFAIK, she's being charged because this was a reasonable outcome from her actions.

Crazy, but a reasonable outcome that she should have considered.

Yeah, get all that. The fact that this is technically the way it works there legally underlines just how fucked up this is...

 

[pink poodle]

Wouldn't want the king of England pushing people around.

 

[Ultra Lord]

Just read the article. 5 shots into an unarmed assailant, seems abit excessive no?

Ah well. Murica!

 

[Zaf]

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[Ultra Lord]

@Zaf
5 shots into the stomach. She didn’t “eliminate the threat” she shot to maim.
She had 5 goes at shooting to eliminate, and wiffed all five of them.

 

[moorey]

@Zaf, it wasn’t a loaded Q. I don’t know the story other than what was said earlier.
If it’s the US, I do believe there’s a pattern based on the skin colour or victim and perp.
Tell me if this wasn’t the case here.

 

[Tubbsy]

@ZafI don’t know the story other than what was said earlier.

"Ms. Jones was five months pregnant and working at a company in Pleasant Grove that sells fuel for fires, when she got involved in an altercation in the parking lot of the Dollar General store.

The fight stemmed from a long-simmering feud with a female co-worker, Ebony Jemison, 23, over a man who worked at the same company. Ms. Jones spotted Ms. Jemison in the parking lot and started a fight with her, according to a law enforcement officer with direct knowledge of the investigation who did not want to be identified. By the officer’s account, Ms. Jones was winning the fight and had Ms. Jemison pinned in her car.

After taking repeated blows, the officer said, Ms. Jemison reached for a gun, and fired point blank into Ms. Jones’s stomach. Ms. Jones was driven to a hospital in a car that apparently broke down on the way. Paramedics eventually arrived and took her to a hospital, but her fetus — struck by a bullet — died."

 

[pink poodle]

Regardless of your personal feelings on the subject, self-defence is a valid reason for owning a firearm.

In the USA and a bunch of other places this is true. Here and a bunch of other places this is not true and strongly shown to be unnecessary. I think some of us have trouble comprehending how someone could decide they needed to shoot a pregnant woman in any situation because it is so far removed from our daily experience. I've been in a variety of confrontations involving different weapons, never a firearm or other projectile weapon mind you (well except missiles like rocks and beer bottles being thrown), and I have never thought I needed a gun to defend myself. It is just something that is quite removed from the Australian culture.

This part of the incident aside, prosecution of the pregnant aggressor does seem a strange one and in line with the recent resurgence of suppression of women in various parts of the USA.

 

[Zaf]

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[Tubbsy]

Literally exactly what I said...literally exactly what has happened.

Literally.

 

[Zaf]

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[Ultra Lord]

I don’t need to see liveleak, i know how good a shot you need to be with small calibre bullets (as I’ve told you before, I used to shoot. I owned guns and had my licence.).

Poodles said my point nicely. It’s interesting you can see nothing wrong with whats happened.

 

[Zaf]

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[moorey]

Both white, both black,

"Ms. Jones was five months pregnant and working at a company in Pleasant Grove that sells fuel for fires, when she got involved in an altercation in the parking lot of the Dollar General store.

The fight stemmed from a long-simmering feud with a female co-worker, Ebony Jemison, 23, over a man who worked at the same company. Ms. Jones spotted Ms. Jemison in the parking lot and started a fight with her, according to a law enforcement officer with direct knowledge of the investigation who did not want to be identified. By the officer’s account, Ms. Jones was winning the fight and had Ms. Jemison pinned in her car.

After taking repeated blows, the officer said, Ms. Jemison reached for a gun, and fired point blank into Ms. Jones’s stomach. Ms. Jones was driven to a hospital in a car that apparently broke down on the way. Paramedics eventually arrived and took her to a hospital, but her fetus — struck by a bullet — died."

Cheers. Just missing the info that may or may not be relevant to my call.

 

[pink poodle]

Both white, both black,

Cheers. Just missing the info that may or may not be relevant to my call.

I believe this was not an interracial event, with both parties being black.

 

[pink poodle]

You guys just think that I'm okay with it because of your pre-existing bias.

So...every sperm is sacred, yes or no?

 

[Tubbsy]

Cheers. Just missing the info that may or may not be relevant to my call.

A bit of context was the only reason I added that passage from NYT.

For what it's worth, I saw @Zaf's point all along - in a jurisdiction where you're allowed to carry a weapon, you're entitled to argue that you feared for your life and needed to use it. In that sense it's a pretty simple case. If you're being battered by someone, their pregnancy shouldn't mean you lie down and take it.

Whether or not it's a good idea for people to be allowed to carry guns around in public is a separate matter, and we even have a special thread where we can discuss it again.

 

[Ultra Lord]

You guys just think that I'm okay with it because of your pre-existing bias.

And you keep saying things like this, whilst making no effort to display otherwise.

We know the legalities of it. Without you pointing it out again and again. That’s not gonna stop it being shocking and us to express that.

 

[Zaf]

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