What do you want from a modern LBS?

[Jaredp]

The two most frustrating things about LBS's is:

1) the lack of stock. I am talking anything other than a tube, tyre lever, stupid light or bottle cage. The shape of shimano and SRAM brake pads has changed about 3 times in over a decade. That's 6 sets of brake pads. 12 if you want to carry two sets.... If this is too big a capital investment. You don't have enough money to survive in retail, go and do something else. Same for BB's, fork seals, shock seals spokes and drive train spares.

2) why the hell is it so hard to order something!? Why does it take 3 days to call a supplier and let me know its back order. Or if they do have, tell me "we have already done our stock order so it could be a few weeks coming in". A BB is about $50, get it sent mail and charge me the $6 in freight it cost you, Christ mark it up to $9 and make 33% GP on the freight..... OR tell my "hey I can air bag it and it will cost you $18" that's cheaper then buying it from JensonUSA or CRC and you could use your initiative and get the supplier to chuck some other stuff in the air bag you need for someone else's order/stock items.

 

[StanTheMan]

excellent reply's thus far guys! It just seems that alot of LBS have lost their way and that if they are going to hang around we need to understand the point of difference for the next generation of stores.

Good to see some older members replying too and new, it's an incredible scope of cross sectioned market on here, too valuable to go past.

Anyone care to comment on the franchises aspect, or no one really that phased? It seems like a substantial amount of coin for something that one already has contacts and relationships for.

Secondhand shop stock seems like a good option, shopping around and location.

How many of you travel a decent distance or beyond the closest store to get the best service possible?

The retail Model as we know it is finished its got to change. Retail has to work together with the internet. Just look at Apple & Nespresso.
we can order online......but we also go to thier concept store.
Its like my wife rings me.....we need some Nespresso capsules. Today!!!!!
I'm thinking Ohhhh fuck . Its Sat 3pm. There is a Nespresso store in Chatswood. My blood starts to boil. Fucking Chatswood of all places. So the plan was, I drive in, I'll park 5 min away duck into the shop & make this like a SAS sting. In & out in less than 12 min.
Well.....It took me 20 min to find a park in the streets within 5 min walk of the shop. I get to the shop. OMFG there was a que that snailed around in the shop almost out the frigging door. My lid just about popped. I was on the verge of Heart attack and rage. WTF is everyone doing on a sat afternoon getting capsuels at a farking Nespresso store. Haven't people got something better to do? GAWD!!!!!!
At the counter there was a 4 girls serving. They were seriously busy. Within about a minute I had a menu in my hand & i had been asked if I'd like to sample a flavour. mmmmm....I started to calm down. I think in the 20 min I was waithing in the que I had 3 different samples. LOL
and I was happy waiting. How about that.
Now that sort of model is going to be pretty hard to do for your traditional Bike shop.

You have shimano, SRAM, Giant, Specialized and a few other comanys big enough to be able to pull that sort of thing off. It means Universal pricing for everyone. It means massive concept stores on shimano, Giant, Specialized SRAM and so on. Owned by the big boys. Globally
perhaps .
While youre in the que to be served they teach you about nutrition. or give away samples of GU sperts gels or something.
but hat sort of Model means there is not much room for the little independant guy who is passionate about his bikes. It means we are basically going to a fast food chain like maccas for our bike stuff because it is cheap.
Perhaps this means repairs will take forever because the guy doing it is extreemly specialised & probably shared between several stores.
it will be pretty hard to find anyone that can help you restore some old bike you've just picked up at some 2nd hand market. You tube is your only option.
You then have internet sites who make so much money from thier sponsors that they rent a warehouse, so thier members can get together to have dodgy days repairing their bikes, as this will probably be the only way to fix your bike. Thats where the know how will be.


Franchising......in this sort of model there isn't much room for franchising. The big boys own us all. However in retail thats really where its at.
Go to any Westfield. There is not many truely independant operators around anymore, You got your spec Savers, bakers delight, EB games & so on. You will have a pretty hard time getting into a Westfield without being franchised. The Franchise company will probably do all the wheeling & dealing for you or on your behalf.
Just remember as far as franchising goes. Its not the operator that makes the money. Mark my words. To be a successful francisee you need to have about 3 in different socio economic areas. Thats all I'll say about that.
/rant

 

[poita]

I don't mind franchise stores, but all that I have been into can't even organise themselves enough to have stock of their core brand, let alone anything else.
If the franchisors can get their stuff together and know their market, then maybe us customers and the franchisees can have a good go?

 

[driftking]

excellent reply's thus far guys! It just seems that alot of LBS have lost their way and that if they are going to hang around we need to understand the point of difference for the next generation of stores.

How many of you travel a decent distance or beyond the closest store to get the best service possible?

I think its the common issue that money drives most things, too many business's have fallen short of actual services and are too focused on just cash flow, its easy to do its a business cash flow is what you need and in these hard competitive times its even easier to look at the cash flow and where its coming from but with that the stores are losing the personal touch and service. Iv noticed from most post that while money is a consideration everyone including myself mainly noted personal touches and and general running of the business; contact, reliability, trust, time and knowledge.

As for travel distance
I go about 10min to my mechanic
I go about 30min to my LBS for purchases and I do use them for servicing too at times.
I go about 45-1hour for my wheels at TWE they are almost impossible to go past, too good.

On the 10min journey I pass 4 bike stores that I know of.

 

[NSR]

Yep, will pay a bit more for prompt parts + allowing for the fact that you still need to make a buck.

+1 for this. I have no problem at all paying a bit more to get an item the moment I ask for it. I do not however want to walk into a bike shop with a flat tyre and get stung with ~$15 for a tube, then another ~$20 for a tyre boot because said shop doesn't have any gaffer tape to fix the hole in my tire so I can ride home and swap the tyre out.
Poor service is also a turn off. I don't like going into a bike store and having a staff member tell me I'm wrong, or ignore me when I walk into the store and make me wait even though there clearly isn't anything happening. Are you really that busy that you can't give a customer say two minutes to answer a question or two? No, you clearly aren't. Stop being so pretentious and do your damn job.
I'm all for supporting local, but if stores can't offer competitive prices, or decent service, or something new, I'm sorry, but I will not buy anything from your store or promote you or anything.
That saying, I have a brilliant mechanic, that I happily ride half an hour plus to visit, even just to say hello.

 

[StanTheMan]

I don't mind franchise stores, but all that I have been into can't even organise themselves enough to have stock of their core brand, let alone anything else.
If the franchisors can get their stuff together and know their market, then maybe us customers and the franchisees can have a good go?

Franchising isn't about service. Its about the product they sell.Franchising is also about getting a product to you so it costs them virtually nothing.
That means you get what you see in the display window or whatever you order (If its a custom order) takes forever to get to you. Look at Bakers delight or Spec savers
Spec savers takes 2 weeks to do what a independant optometrist can do overnight. If you go to Bakers delight. If you want something they havent got.....you can't get it.

with franchise group has preferred suppliers. in some cases that means you can't go outside those suppliers. Mainly because you don'y get thier product cheap enough.
or in extreme cases they proiduce the product for you and you have to purchase that from them. Thats where they make thier money plus the yearly Franchise fees.

With franchising you essentially have you hands tied behind your back. You sell what you can get cheap with massive markup or sell it cheaper because you've achieved a massive group discount because competittion is tough.

I'm not trying to discourage you. Just trying to tell you how it is. If you do go for a franchise, positive is the only way you should go into it. or at least make an edjucated decision. Not blinded by the fast talking sales guys.

 

[MARKL]

Anyone care to comment on the franchises aspect, or no one really that phased? It seems like a substantial amount of coin for something that one already has contacts and relationships for.

Secondhand shop stock seems like a good option, shopping around and location.

How many of you travel a decent distance or beyond the closest store to get the best service possible?

Good questions Sethius, better than the standard LBS versus CRC/Wiggle etc...

Franchises? Depends on the model, if it is the high(ish) end Specialized type concept store then yes i see it has a place and will succeed in the long run. The 99bikes/goldcross model is just a race to the bottom occupying a space between K-mart and a trad bike shop. To me it has the advantages of neither and the worst features of both so I can't see them succeeding in the long run...you may buy your first bike from them but not your second.

I do most of my own work but I will travel about an hour for my preferred LBS and pass about a dozen shops on the way...they all offer crap prices, no stock and bring a healthy does of NFI to the table.

I also agree with the above comment that the traditional retail model is dying, especially for high end specialised products - the model will move to the Apple store concept where you can touch, feel get expert advice without pressure to purchase. You buy from them or off the web they don't really care.

 

[miko]

Yep, same here, service.

I don't want a wheel built with the wrong length spokes. Or a shock that doesn't rebound. Or to chase someone to buy something.

Online buying is so easy these days, a shop is going to have to add something for me to consider it.

Hint: BS is not it!

 

[markb84]

I have been pissed off by so many LBS now I'm pretty much at the stage where I've given up trying to find a decent one.

What I would love to find when I go to a LBS is

- Knowledge, everyone can't know everything, if you don't know don't pretend you do, admit you don't know what you're talking about and spend the time finding out so that you know in future. I've had so many cases where I've needed something specific and been told "I think this will do the job instead" only to find out that they are completely wrong.

- If I ask you to order a specific part, order it. I'm happy to hear your thoughts on why you prefer this or that part but if I come to you with a part number and some cash and say I want this, just order it and call me when it's in. I was trying to get a spare for a shimano caliper from a shop, I went in with the Shimano service guide with exploded view and part numbers, told them I needed a specific bit and they ordered the wrong one twice! I gave up at that point and went elsewhere.

- Superior mechanics - The most value can be recognised from the service dept of a LBS, this is why I buy in a shop instead of online, because there's someone there that I trust to service my bike more than myself, I want to be able to go in with my bike, whether or not I bought it from them or the parts are what they would use and tell them it's not running right and have them tinker with it until it's perfect. That is the ultimate in bike shops for me. I had a shop like this in the UK and I miss it.

- Customer service - It doesn't matter whether it's a 30 year old business man who pulls up in a ferrari and a suit or a snotty nosed school boy who wants to know what he can buy with $16, EVERY CUSTOMER IS IMPORTANT!! That business man might only ever buy inner tubes from you and the school boy might save every dollar he gets for 6 years so he can buy a Santa Trek carbotanium V15 FZR (this is in 6 years time remember..) I used to go into a bike shop on the way home from school every day, I got to know the owners of the shop really well, I learnt how to true wheels and talked to them for ages, they were always nice to me and I spent what little money I had with them, 8 years later when I was working full time and had got over my sex,drugs and rock and roll stage of life I wanted to get back into riding, where did I go? The new shop in town with the awesome bikes? No, I went to the shop that I passed every day as a kid and spent a lot of money getting a fully custom bike.

- Value for money This is important, if I have to spend more for a reason that's fine, in order to cost more you have to give me more. The world we live in is turning away from being based around hardware profit margins and towards margins on services. I think a shop will do better if they concentrate on the services they offer instead of the money they make on the bikes. Run a skills class (chargeable), run a mechanic workshop (chargeable), do suspension tuning (chargeable), offer pre-race tuning (chargeable), biek cleaning (chargeable), you see where I'm going with this? Many shops offer these services as a value add to the hardware in order to boost their sales, I believe we're entering a time where the opposite should be true, sell cheap bits with skinny margins, take your profits from the skills you have and the services you provide.

 

[Vedsy]

Stock - Very rarely do any of the shops around me have something I want actually physically there. Thats why as a rule I order most things online. No I dont feel the slightest bit bad about it, I'm saving myself time and money, both of which are limited. Yep, I'll happily pay a little extra to have something right now instead of waiting for postage, but if I have to wait for the shop to order it, I'll do it myself and save the cash.

Service - I've been to a few shops where I was treated like an inconvenience. Although I did have a great experience the other week, went in to my local with a fork I needed the crown race fitted to. It was lunchtime, they were busy, fair enough. So they asked if I could leave it there for them to do later, and come back to pick it up. I didn't really want to make another trip back for something that literally takes 5 seconds to do. They said no worries, the tool's right there, you're welcome to do it yourself. Stoked! Smashed it on, and ended up buying a couple pairs of gloves on the way out. Such a little thing made me happy, got me spending money, and insured I'll be back again next time.

 

[nathanm]

I think it's pretty easy to see the common thread here.

However what you are receiving is information from experienced MTB'ers, predominantly about buying parts and service.

What you are missing is information on a very large chunk of the bike store market, the purchase of and subsequent service from inexperienced riders, particularly first bike buyers and those returning after a long absence.

What influences the person who wants to get fit, ride trails etc and has $1-5k in their pocket to spend. Everytime Anaconda has a sale down here you pretty much see their floor stock get wiped out. Why to they buy there and not from an LBS.

I personally think entry level and first bike purchases should be the main stay for any store they are the best way to fill the till and if you treat the person right you've got servicing and upgrades from that customer for life.

apologies for responding to a question with a question.

 

[rider124]

Personally i think from working in a bike shop, is to have people experienced in all areas of bikes.
My shop for example, we are mainly road bikers, because that is the main sort of bike we stock. But we also have hybrids/cruisers/kids bikes and some Expensive Mountain bikes, usually when your buying some sort of bikes, you will have questions and you will want as much info as possible. Its better to have people experienced in all areas instead of some shops i have been too where they are all roadie's and dont have a single clue about a Mountain bike, even though they stock $5000 plus mountain bikes.

 

[Fifteen.Hundred]

O.K, it seems like there are quite a few “customer service” issues in the bike industry. Thankfully, I reckon I’m on a winner with the LBS I deal with.

Here is my thought though. How about an LBS sets up a couple of computers in their store, invite the average Joe to walk in and chat with them about a part upgrade – this forum and others are full of “what size shock do i need” or “which brake set should I get” threads – after getting advice from the shop sit at one of the computers and make a purchase from CRC, Wiggle etc. for the parts you just discussed. The only catch however would be that the customer would have the order delivered to the LBS in the understanding that the parts be fitted by the shop for a set fee. When the package arrives, LBS calls average Joe and sets a time to fit the parts.

I get the idea that people don’t necessarily expect their LBS to be cheaper than CRC, Wiggle etc, just in the ballpark.

Say I needed a new FD. The LBS could advise me on top/bottom pull. Clamp size, SRAM V Shimano etc. I could make the correct purchase online for say $50 and the LBS could have a set fee of say $20 for fitting & tuning of the part. Wouldn’t this be similar to the LBS charging $70 to get it from the local distributor and taking the same amount of time to have it delivered as the online store? I’m happy because I haven’t stuffed it and bought a FD with the wrong clamp size, my LBS has made a little $ and the customer/LBS relationship is still sweet.

Now, I am in no way suggesting that this be their core business, hopefully that would still be complete bikes, but I think it could offset the need to stock a huge inventory of spares and parts.

Am I crazy thinking that this could possibly work?

 

[Wellsey]

^^^^^^^Yes you're crazy.

 

[Reubs]

Yes, you are crazy. It is insulting to have some A-hole walk into your shop with a brand new part they bought elsewhere and ask you to fit it. Most shops will but will charge you more for the service than they would've had you bought it there. The shop I worked at in BC would fit any part for free if you bought it from us, we'd charge like hell if it was from the Internet and politely let the customer know that we fit stuff for free. If you expect to waste someone's time by asking for info and then shopping elsewhere, you should also be expecting to be treated badly.

I don't think the franchise thing is a real concern, I know of both good and bad stores of the same franchise purely based in the staff un the store.

 

[beardi]

I agree it is pretty average form to seek info from one shop and then purchase elsewhere HOWEVER this is the real world! Ever shopped around for a car? What about asked for a discount at JB when buying a new TV? People will do it because they value their money just as I'm sure you value yours. Do you buy beer brewed by a multi-national corporation? You know you're sending the little local brewer out of business don't you?

I feel like the chip on the shoulder of the LBS is getting bigger and bigger and I feel that the attitude and disdain starts to pollute your service. Your customer starts to look more like a suspect than the potential source of income. The fact that customers are going elsewhere shows that shops aren't doing a good job of selling their product and convincing customers of the value proposition listed above.

 

[markb84]

I think the industry as a whole needs to look at the way they deal with shops vs. internet.

The AV industry went through similar issues in the early noughties, the way they kept everyone happy was to separate the range they sold into high and low end products. High end products could only be purchased and sold by authorised shops that offered qualified installation, the budget end could be purchased by online resellers and the shops.

I think this could be applied well to the bike industry, for instance with Shimano you would be able to by the low end group sets on CRC but if you wanted XTR/Saint you would have to buy from an authorised shop, who would also then be fitting it to high standards.

This solves a lot of current issues:
Pricing, if your priority is low cost, you can buy cheap parts online, if your priority is quality you can buy from shops
Reputation, the high end products (like XTR) are professionally fitted, keeping the reputation of gear intact as opposed to spanner monkeys bodging their installs and telling their mates that the kit is shit.
Qualified shops get their business back Keeping the qualified shops in business and reassuring clients that they are getting qualified fitting and service, therefore it was worth the extra coin

 

[driftking]

I think the industry as a whole needs to look at the way they deal with shops vs. internet.

The AV industry went through similar issues in the early noughties, the way they kept everyone happy was to separate the range they sold into high and low end products. High end products could only be purchased and sold by authorised shops that offered qualified installation, the budget end could be purchased by online resellers and the shops.

I think this could be applied well to the bike industry, for instance with Shimano you would be able to by the low end group sets on CRC but if you wanted XTR/Saint you would have to buy from an authorised shop, who would also then be fitting it to high standards.

This solves a lot of current issues:
Pricing, if your priority is low cost, you can buy cheap parts online, if your priority is quality you can buy from shops
Reputation, the high end products (like XTR) are professionally fitted, keeping the reputation of gear intact as opposed to spanner monkeys bodging their installs and telling their mates that the kit is shit.
Qualified shops get their business back Keeping the qualified shops in business and reassuring clients that they are getting qualified fitting and service, therefore it was worth the extra coin

i think the issue is some parts whether high end or not are the exact same installation process, so it will create backlash for this type of idea.
Further more the bike shops would need to convince manufactures to enter into this type of state, I doubt many if any will say ok we will cut down out distribution and profit to help our the LBS. Eventually there will be a demand for the online style market again and that will just open back up with manufactures wanting to increase there product use and profit. So once one caves the rest will follow creating the same situation we have now.

The best method would be to workout better channels and government tax requirements and convince them that because of the excessive mark up our economy is loosing money and we need to have lower pricing to be competitive in the industry providing a long term solution.

 

[SuchisLife]

Quite simply, I want the person who owns the store to work there, and they must ride and be a straight shooter no BS. This ensures they will be up to speed on current trends, understand riding time is limited and downtime sucks and would therefore be able to staff the store with similar likeminded people.

 

[beardi]

Correct me if this is already being done but isn't the answer for a business to head straight to Taiwan or China and source good quality parts under their own brand? Everyone keeps complaining about distributors, but why not go straight to the manufacturer? Are production runs really that big? Sure the small little LBS might not have the capital but perhaps a co-operative setup could work. My point is that many businesses in other areas are now going direct. I used to run a wine store and to compete with the big players we would have 100,000 Euro of wine shipped from Europe, no middle man, direct from the winery. We made massive margin on these products whilst still being competitive with other similar products on the market....No reason why this can't work in my opinion.