where do you think our sport is going
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Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
Re: stuff
You're saying that DH is dying because of freeriding? Why? Because more people want to do/watch that than DH? Is that a fault of freeriding? What's freeriding's crime then? People find it more fun? Cooler? More accesible? More entertaining to watch?
What's your solution to that? Ban freeriding? Shouldn't you be asking what DH is lacking then, instead of attacking freeriding?
Freeriding and DH aren't like two politicians, slandering, mudslinging and spreading lies about each other. The bottom line is that people LIKE one discipline more than the other. And instead crying foul since your preferred discipline isn't as popular... why don't you think of what freeriding has that DH doesn't, and then try to improve DH to make it as or more popular?
And the idea that a sport needs competition to evolve needs to be rethought as well. What's pushed snowboarding to evolve? To do new tricks? To change gear? If you're thinking comps... I think you might be mistaken. It's the movies and magazines that push the riders (as well as just the desire to go bigger than your buddy/idol/other guy). If it was the comps, why wouldn't all snowboard movies just be compilations of all the competitions, instead of the (here's that word again) freeriding that they show?
Whoa.... wait up Riles...riles said:
You're saying that DH is dying because of freeriding? Why? Because more people want to do/watch that than DH? Is that a fault of freeriding? What's freeriding's crime then? People find it more fun? Cooler? More accesible? More entertaining to watch?
What's your solution to that? Ban freeriding? Shouldn't you be asking what DH is lacking then, instead of attacking freeriding?
Freeriding and DH aren't like two politicians, slandering, mudslinging and spreading lies about each other. The bottom line is that people LIKE one discipline more than the other. And instead crying foul since your preferred discipline isn't as popular... why don't you think of what freeriding has that DH doesn't, and then try to improve DH to make it as or more popular?
And the idea that a sport needs competition to evolve needs to be rethought as well. What's pushed snowboarding to evolve? To do new tricks? To change gear? If you're thinking comps... I think you might be mistaken. It's the movies and magazines that push the riders (as well as just the desire to go bigger than your buddy/idol/other guy). If it was the comps, why wouldn't all snowboard movies just be compilations of all the competitions, instead of the (here's that word again) freeriding that they show?
Gutty
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Re: stuff
Also, i live 5 mins from some of south sydneys best DH trails(Bulli), now these trails are on govt land and there is no way we would be allowed to hold a race on em, should i stop riding them and drive a couple of hours to where ever the nearest race meeting is ? And should i not ride on those weekends when there is no racing on ?
You can walk around and call yourself whatever you like, i personally don't like labels. I don't call myself a freerider, i call myself Gutty or Matt, i ride MX and what i like to call "non race DH".
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, though i personally see yours as a bit selfish. [end rant]
As for the future of our sport.......the price of bikes are too high for alot of people, i have a buch of MXer mates that would love to own a DH bike but simply can't justify that amount of money for a pushbike. You can get a new MXer for about the same money and often cheaper than a decent DH bike.....simply doesn't make sense(to alot of people anyway)
And the lack of trails is also a problem, i can travel 30-60 mins and have a choice of half a dozen MX clubs to ride at but i have to travel hours to get to any DH trails other than those near my house and even then chances are they may be illegal.
All just my (insert descriptive word here) opinion of course.
Long live all types of biking.
Why should everyone drive toward the same goal ? Not everyone has the same goal. Just because you want to race DH doesn't mean everyone does. I personally raced BMX for 5 years as a kid and also raced MX from the age of 8 until my early teens. I stopped racing, not because i was no good(though i was never great) but simply because i don't enjoy all the hype that surrounds the racing scene and i'd rather just go and have fun with my mates hitting some jumps or whatever.(no, i'm not a hucker)riles said:
Also, i live 5 mins from some of south sydneys best DH trails(Bulli), now these trails are on govt land and there is no way we would be allowed to hold a race on em, should i stop riding them and drive a couple of hours to where ever the nearest race meeting is ? And should i not ride on those weekends when there is no racing on ?
You can walk around and call yourself whatever you like, i personally don't like labels. I don't call myself a freerider, i call myself Gutty or Matt, i ride MX and what i like to call "non race DH".
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, though i personally see yours as a bit selfish. [end rant]
As for the future of our sport.......the price of bikes are too high for alot of people, i have a buch of MXer mates that would love to own a DH bike but simply can't justify that amount of money for a pushbike. You can get a new MXer for about the same money and often cheaper than a decent DH bike.....simply doesn't make sense(to alot of people anyway)
And the lack of trails is also a problem, i can travel 30-60 mins and have a choice of half a dozen MX clubs to ride at but i have to travel hours to get to any DH trails other than those near my house and even then chances are they may be illegal.
All just my (insert descriptive word here) opinion of course.
Long live all types of biking.
DOM
Eats Squid
another rant by DOM.
Ok this debate will go on and on and on.
Some things which i Tink.
1 . I kind of Agree with Riles - Free riding as always been around .. the reason is it bigger then DH at the moment i beleive is that it's easier to capture for a audience whether it be TV or Movies. All the best DH tracks in the world are inside forests or rainforests or secluded area's where TV camera's must be setup all down the track .. this comes with a price and people dont want to do it. - 1 sport which is damm hard to film and costs an am and a leg is Rally driving .. but that is soo big that the cost doesnt matter.
2 . How many "pro" free riders can you think of ? I can think of heaps and heaps and heaps .. watch any superhero's movie or New world disorder and youll find 1000 guys all jumping the same gaps .. all doing the same tricks .. all hucking the same cliffs ... Name 15 people who can all ride a certain DH track faster then Nico ? .. my point is .. Downhilling is alot harder to get into .. requires an ennormous amount of skill to be "pro" compeitive .. far enough not everyone has to be a pro ... this whole debate isnt about us Meer Mortals .. we are allowed to ride whatever the hell we want .. we can jump off things .. we can follow tracks we can jump off our street curbs .. this whole debate is based on "PROFESSIONAL STATUS PEOPLE .. PEOPLE BEING PAID .. SPONSORS ETC "
I have shown DH racing to heaps of my family and they all thought it was exciting and viewable .. i showed them "free riding" and they also thought that was viewable .. the thing is .. Sponsors dont want to pay for DH to be televised .. it's too hard to capture .. Sponsors want their product shown on TV's ... to everyday people .. DHilling is too hard to capture. "free riding" on the other hand .. is easy to film .. you can setup courses in open area's of a mountain .. you can use alot of man made objects .. you only need a certain amount of camera's. - You can have large banners on ramps for sponsors .. basically sponsors will get more out of it. Thus is why Free riding is becoming more popular.
I beleive there is less "good" pro downhillers then freerdiers .. becuase i feel a Professional DHer .. has more skill .. if you want to argue about this .. go look at a bloody redbull ride results sheet .. the DHers can run with if not skool the "so called Pro Free riders"
Taking nothing away from the Free riders .. i would like to see both disciplines be as big as each other .. But basically .. Downhilling has been waiting inline for a long time for some recognition .. and "free riding" has just overtaken it .. this will piss alot of people off ... example .. Riles .. and myself infact because i enjoy DH more ..
I personally beleive everyone rides what they want to ride... I do .. downhillers will ride free ride ... Free riders will race Downhill.
Except .. Downhillers will win free ride comps .. but free riders couldnt win a Downhill race heheh .. sorry im biased
But I beleive i can stand on the hill and look at the topic.
It's basically Money based .. sponsorship based ... there is not easy solution .. Sponsors dont want to spend money on Downhill because it is known to not bring in a good return .. it may 1 day bring in a good return .. however nobody want to take this risk.
Remember this arguement is not about us .. it's about "pros" who are using this money .. being paid by sponsors .. being invested in.
We can ride whatever the hell we like .. the participation rate of Mountain Biking is booming .. people are riding having fun .. pushing limits .. but the sponsorship and money side of the sport is in turmoil ..
Freeriding - easy to sponsor
Downhilling - hard to sponsor .. known to give bad returns - nobody wants to try again.
basically how it works.
another things ... big money sponsors like Redbull ... Mountain dew ..
they dont give a fark about who are more skilled .. Dhers or Freeriders .. they dont give a fark whether DH dies .. and freeriding lives .. they dont give a fark who does what ..
all they give a fark about is return on an investment .. they want their product shown .. looked at .. idolised .. they want money back for money put in. and at the moment Freeriding is doing this and Downhill racing isnt.
People may favour 1 over the other .. both are enjoyable .. both are fun to watch .. I have a favourite .. but im happy to see both thrive .. i dont want to see the demise of DH racing .. but I dont have $1000000 dollars to invest in it's revival.
www.opinionheads.com go to the sea otter race report .. Joe Lawill .. who is a X pro Dher .. explains
and Also Rick Sutton from Gale Force .. who were a large sponsor for UCI and Norba races .. explains on www.stiksandstones.com
Someone needs to take a risk on Dowhilling.
Ok this debate will go on and on and on.
Some things which i Tink.
1 . I kind of Agree with Riles - Free riding as always been around .. the reason is it bigger then DH at the moment i beleive is that it's easier to capture for a audience whether it be TV or Movies. All the best DH tracks in the world are inside forests or rainforests or secluded area's where TV camera's must be setup all down the track .. this comes with a price and people dont want to do it. - 1 sport which is damm hard to film and costs an am and a leg is Rally driving .. but that is soo big that the cost doesnt matter.
2 . How many "pro" free riders can you think of ? I can think of heaps and heaps and heaps .. watch any superhero's movie or New world disorder and youll find 1000 guys all jumping the same gaps .. all doing the same tricks .. all hucking the same cliffs ... Name 15 people who can all ride a certain DH track faster then Nico ? .. my point is .. Downhilling is alot harder to get into .. requires an ennormous amount of skill to be "pro" compeitive .. far enough not everyone has to be a pro ... this whole debate isnt about us Meer Mortals .. we are allowed to ride whatever the hell we want .. we can jump off things .. we can follow tracks we can jump off our street curbs .. this whole debate is based on "PROFESSIONAL STATUS PEOPLE .. PEOPLE BEING PAID .. SPONSORS ETC "
I have shown DH racing to heaps of my family and they all thought it was exciting and viewable .. i showed them "free riding" and they also thought that was viewable .. the thing is .. Sponsors dont want to pay for DH to be televised .. it's too hard to capture .. Sponsors want their product shown on TV's ... to everyday people .. DHilling is too hard to capture. "free riding" on the other hand .. is easy to film .. you can setup courses in open area's of a mountain .. you can use alot of man made objects .. you only need a certain amount of camera's. - You can have large banners on ramps for sponsors .. basically sponsors will get more out of it. Thus is why Free riding is becoming more popular.
I beleive there is less "good" pro downhillers then freerdiers .. becuase i feel a Professional DHer .. has more skill .. if you want to argue about this .. go look at a bloody redbull ride results sheet .. the DHers can run with if not skool the "so called Pro Free riders"
Taking nothing away from the Free riders .. i would like to see both disciplines be as big as each other .. But basically .. Downhilling has been waiting inline for a long time for some recognition .. and "free riding" has just overtaken it .. this will piss alot of people off ... example .. Riles .. and myself infact because i enjoy DH more ..
I personally beleive everyone rides what they want to ride... I do .. downhillers will ride free ride ... Free riders will race Downhill.
Except .. Downhillers will win free ride comps .. but free riders couldnt win a Downhill race heheh .. sorry im biased
But I beleive i can stand on the hill and look at the topic.
It's basically Money based .. sponsorship based ... there is not easy solution .. Sponsors dont want to spend money on Downhill because it is known to not bring in a good return .. it may 1 day bring in a good return .. however nobody want to take this risk.
Remember this arguement is not about us .. it's about "pros" who are using this money .. being paid by sponsors .. being invested in.
We can ride whatever the hell we like .. the participation rate of Mountain Biking is booming .. people are riding having fun .. pushing limits .. but the sponsorship and money side of the sport is in turmoil ..
Freeriding - easy to sponsor
Downhilling - hard to sponsor .. known to give bad returns - nobody wants to try again.
basically how it works.
another things ... big money sponsors like Redbull ... Mountain dew ..
they dont give a fark about who are more skilled .. Dhers or Freeriders .. they dont give a fark whether DH dies .. and freeriding lives .. they dont give a fark who does what ..
all they give a fark about is return on an investment .. they want their product shown .. looked at .. idolised .. they want money back for money put in. and at the moment Freeriding is doing this and Downhill racing isnt.
People may favour 1 over the other .. both are enjoyable .. both are fun to watch .. I have a favourite .. but im happy to see both thrive .. i dont want to see the demise of DH racing .. but I dont have $1000000 dollars to invest in it's revival.
www.opinionheads.com go to the sea otter race report .. Joe Lawill .. who is a X pro Dher .. explains
and Also Rick Sutton from Gale Force .. who were a large sponsor for UCI and Norba races .. explains on www.stiksandstones.com
Someone needs to take a risk on Dowhilling.
Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
Well said Dom. But this leaves the question... how do you solve the problems that scare away sponsor dollars? It seems like a large part of it is that DH is too difficult to televise/film. How do you fix this? How can you film a DH race with a minimum of cameras and show off sponsors logos better?
Hold them above the treeline? Put them all on the biggest open runs at ski resorts? Maybe an urban thing? These are just thoughts... I wish I had good answers.
Your argument seems to me to be actual visibility of the racers and the course.
I love DH too. If there was a DH race on TV, I would stop EVERYTHING and sit down and watch it. But unless you've got the right cable channel (if you can even get "that" channel in Australia), you're never gonna see it. Instead, you'll just be presented with the usual fare... motorsport, cricket, footy, etc...
Hey... rally driving, as forementioned, works on a similar filming thing as DH, but gets all the money and exposure. I think everyone complaining about freeriding being the enemy of DH should look at the real culprits! Sports WITHOUT bicycles!!! If we got rid of rally driving... everyone would probably flock to DH!
Who's with me?!? Let's gooooooo!!!!!
*Techno storms off with burning stakes and a big rifle to the rally driving association's headquarters*
Hold them above the treeline? Put them all on the biggest open runs at ski resorts? Maybe an urban thing? These are just thoughts... I wish I had good answers.
Your argument seems to me to be actual visibility of the racers and the course.
I love DH too. If there was a DH race on TV, I would stop EVERYTHING and sit down and watch it. But unless you've got the right cable channel (if you can even get "that" channel in Australia), you're never gonna see it. Instead, you'll just be presented with the usual fare... motorsport, cricket, footy, etc...
Hey... rally driving, as forementioned, works on a similar filming thing as DH, but gets all the money and exposure. I think everyone complaining about freeriding being the enemy of DH should look at the real culprits! Sports WITHOUT bicycles!!! If we got rid of rally driving... everyone would probably flock to DH!
Who's with me?!? Let's gooooooo!!!!!
*Techno storms off with burning stakes and a big rifle to the rally driving association's headquarters*
Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
Actually, I can handle watching rally driving on TV. It's probably the best "car" sport out there.
Car sports that involve a car driving around a track of road though... that can be nuked. Especially when it's a circular track!
Nascar? Puh-leeeeeeeze! :lol:
Car sports that involve a car driving around a track of road though... that can be nuked. Especially when it's a circular track!
Nascar? Puh-leeeeeeeze! :lol:
Gutty
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Re: another rant by DOM.
He claims that basicly freeriding is killing racing. Should freeriding be banned because a few(maybe alot) would rather race ? Should we also ban motoGP because it takes away from Superbikes or vise versa ? And while were at it maybe we could ban Rugby league because it taking up TV space that could be use for Rugby Union. What a crock of shit ! Laying the blame on another style of riding is simply stupid.
I am a firm believer that sports should and generally do progress natuarally, not because some company decides to pump huge amounts of money into it. If DH gets no TV there are reasons, If company "X" doesn't want to sponsor an event/team there are reasons, If DH racing fades into oblivion there are reasons. We can debate the reasons why forever and a day, it's not gonna change anything. Those reasons are still there.
And you say yourself DOM that pro racers are winning the freeride comps, So how is freeride taking away from racing ? Maybe all those top racers should boycott the freeride comps, then the sponsors may put their money back into racing where all the big names are. Maybe it's those top pros that are really to blame......maybe not. We have a few on board here, i'd be very intersted to here their point of view regarding this topic.(only the last paragraph)
In the end, if DH racing fails there is a reason and that reason is not simply "freeriding". If 90% of all aussie DH riders decide to go hucking thats their choice, there is also probably a reason why they made that choice too.
Also, what is it that racers do when there are no races on ?? I think we all know the answer.
How much is "kind of" ?DOM said:
He claims that basicly freeriding is killing racing. Should freeriding be banned because a few(maybe alot) would rather race ? Should we also ban motoGP because it takes away from Superbikes or vise versa ? And while were at it maybe we could ban Rugby league because it taking up TV space that could be use for Rugby Union. What a crock of shit ! Laying the blame on another style of riding is simply stupid.
I am a firm believer that sports should and generally do progress natuarally, not because some company decides to pump huge amounts of money into it. If DH gets no TV there are reasons, If company "X" doesn't want to sponsor an event/team there are reasons, If DH racing fades into oblivion there are reasons. We can debate the reasons why forever and a day, it's not gonna change anything. Those reasons are still there.
And you say yourself DOM that pro racers are winning the freeride comps, So how is freeride taking away from racing ? Maybe all those top racers should boycott the freeride comps, then the sponsors may put their money back into racing where all the big names are. Maybe it's those top pros that are really to blame......maybe not. We have a few on board here, i'd be very intersted to here their point of view regarding this topic.(only the last paragraph)
In the end, if DH racing fails there is a reason and that reason is not simply "freeriding". If 90% of all aussie DH riders decide to go hucking thats their choice, there is also probably a reason why they made that choice too.
Also, what is it that racers do when there are no races on ?? I think we all know the answer.
DOM
Eats Squid
again
Ok so it might not be killing Dh racing ... but sponsors who make a sport grow .. ok so participation makes things grow .. but Sponsors make it grow technically - They think the futue is small contained televised events with man made objects ? they dont know the history and skill involved in DH racing .. they only want small easy to setup things .. like the redbull ride and street DH races .. So yeah Your big Name sponsors who we need to get into Racing .. are learning about Mountain Bike racing in the way of free riding ..
so in my eyes it's not killing Dh racing .. but maybe causing a biased view from sponsors ???
can you imagine large sponsor executives sitting in a board room ... WHOA man did you see that crazy arrrzie dude jump off that cliff dude ? man thats soo extreme we need to sign that guy and put a sticker on his back and pay him to go even bigger dude.
Your not going to see them talk like this .... Yeah how fast is this guy going this year .. he rails every berm, destroys every rock garden .. doesnt use any brakes on any fire roads .. this guy is the future of DH racing .. lets sponsor him.
The executives will only look at the above option .. hence a Biased view of mountain Biking in general - Thus killing DH racing in some peoples opinions - ok so maybe not mine ... but i dont see the 2 disciplines working with each other yet. - Maybe we need to start holding "free ride" comps at races ????
We need to look at the Motocross Supercross and Freestyle SX scenes ... there is no lack of SX racing going on in America .. SX racing isnt shown on Aussie tv's ... not the AMA anyway .. sometimes youll see the SX masters on Channel 10 .. but the AMA series in the US .. is only seen on ESPN .. but they dont seem to have any lack of money .. the freestylers .. your crusty demons .. your Deegans, Seths, Linkagoles,Harts, Kinnards, Ureks .... they are getting heaps of exposure .. the SX racers like Reed, Carmichael, Mcgrath they got heaps of exposure aswell ... So the two categories worked well together .. but basically and it proves this theory ... both events can be televised easily !!!.
IN mountain biking .. 1 event is being televised while the other is not getting a chance .. is known for a bad reputation in sponsorship .. and thus is kind of getting left behind by your big sponsors ..
I dont know how to fix this ? im just a chum on a website .. riding my Boybike on the weekends ..
But this is my opinion of what the problem is.
I dont know how to make it easier to televise ..
maybe robot camera's .. who fly around the faces of the riders hahaha.
Ok so it might not be killing Dh racing ... but sponsors who make a sport grow .. ok so participation makes things grow .. but Sponsors make it grow technically - They think the futue is small contained televised events with man made objects ? they dont know the history and skill involved in DH racing .. they only want small easy to setup things .. like the redbull ride and street DH races .. So yeah Your big Name sponsors who we need to get into Racing .. are learning about Mountain Bike racing in the way of free riding ..
so in my eyes it's not killing Dh racing .. but maybe causing a biased view from sponsors ???
can you imagine large sponsor executives sitting in a board room ... WHOA man did you see that crazy arrrzie dude jump off that cliff dude ? man thats soo extreme we need to sign that guy and put a sticker on his back and pay him to go even bigger dude.
Your not going to see them talk like this .... Yeah how fast is this guy going this year .. he rails every berm, destroys every rock garden .. doesnt use any brakes on any fire roads .. this guy is the future of DH racing .. lets sponsor him.
The executives will only look at the above option .. hence a Biased view of mountain Biking in general - Thus killing DH racing in some peoples opinions - ok so maybe not mine ... but i dont see the 2 disciplines working with each other yet. - Maybe we need to start holding "free ride" comps at races ????
We need to look at the Motocross Supercross and Freestyle SX scenes ... there is no lack of SX racing going on in America .. SX racing isnt shown on Aussie tv's ... not the AMA anyway .. sometimes youll see the SX masters on Channel 10 .. but the AMA series in the US .. is only seen on ESPN .. but they dont seem to have any lack of money .. the freestylers .. your crusty demons .. your Deegans, Seths, Linkagoles,Harts, Kinnards, Ureks .... they are getting heaps of exposure .. the SX racers like Reed, Carmichael, Mcgrath they got heaps of exposure aswell ... So the two categories worked well together .. but basically and it proves this theory ... both events can be televised easily !!!.
IN mountain biking .. 1 event is being televised while the other is not getting a chance .. is known for a bad reputation in sponsorship .. and thus is kind of getting left behind by your big sponsors ..
I dont know how to fix this ? im just a chum on a website .. riding my Boybike on the weekends ..
But this is my opinion of what the problem is.
I dont know how to make it easier to televise ..
maybe robot camera's .. who fly around the faces of the riders hahaha.
Techno Destructo
Riding In Peace
Well, I think ANY aspect of MTBing that gets more public awareness, and therefore more public participation and entrants into the sport, is good. If the numbers increase, so will the chance of all subsets of the sport getting support and coverage. Maybe DH isn't cooking right now, but you could consider freeriding to be the firestarter?
And as for the cameras... helmet cams with boom arms extending 3 meters out front holding cameras pointed back at the rider! POIFECT!
And as for the cameras... helmet cams with boom arms extending 3 meters out front holding cameras pointed back at the rider! POIFECT!
DOM
Eats Squid
Discussions on Other Forums
Check this out on www.dhrace.com
http://www.dhrace.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=659
Basically discussing a fix to the Norba problem.
and one guy explained he had a conversion with cycling USA's director about money going into Jr DH development and how more money goes into XC road etc .. the director explained that it has a great deal to do with XC being an Olympic sport.
Check out the discussions ... ties in alot with what we are talking about
interesting to see the yanks point of view
Check this out on www.dhrace.com
http://www.dhrace.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=659
Basically discussing a fix to the Norba problem.
and one guy explained he had a conversion with cycling USA's director about money going into Jr DH development and how more money goes into XC road etc .. the director explained that it has a great deal to do with XC being an Olympic sport.
Check out the discussions ... ties in alot with what we are talking about
interesting to see the yanks point of view