VIC Yarra Trails - Candlebark Park (Hans)

With absolute respect to you & the other YTT volunteers who've been working in Candlebark, George, I too share grave concerns at not only what you're promoting, with regards to the area being publicised as a conglomeration of "all-weather" trails, but also the very distinct autocratic mono-culture that has developed within the Yarra Tracks & Trails community interest group; something that is now unfortunately translating across what could be considered once intrinsic trail values of that part of the Yarra Trail network. No question, there are things that need to be removed, areas that need extensive rehabilitation & improvements made (both in terms of how riders engage with the area & how they feel encouraged to engage with you/yourselves) in Candlebark, but it's a situation that while being successful for you in formalising your relationship with PV has unfortunately continued to fracture & drive away a large number of people within the community whose historical & technical knowledge would be invaluable to the YTT group, & Parks Victoria, whilst also missing a great opportunity for you to not only preserve & enhance the existing trails but also the user experience for all levels of rider across the XC/trail disciplines.

The work you guys are doing, in the interest of preserving & legitimately establishing the area as a legal portion of an extensive network founded, created & tirelessly maintained by mtbers before you, is fantastic & the efforts appreciated, however as a self-appointed body (& in your case, the leader of) it's unfortunate when you come onto a forum such as this & start throwing labels about & soap-boxing, irrespective of how entitled you might feel you are to do so.

From what I can see & understand going by your images, both historically & from an IMBA framework perspective, clearly there are a number of drainage issues that need to be addressed & revised through that section along with others. I'm sure whoever has made those small 'eye-sores' was merely providing a temporary measure/solution to what certainly appears to be a recurring issue. Undoubtedly they've staved off what would otherwise be extensive damage to that corner given the propensity & insistence for an extraordinary number of tiny-brained MTB & CX riders to ride the network when it's very wet. Rather than you being divisive & throwing labels such as 'serial pest' around, take it on board, mark & note the location & remedy the drainage properly. Particularly if you're going to try & promote the area as being suitable for year-round riding. It's winter, which means wet days out there & the need for regular real-time assessing of how various areas are coping; noting & amending the trail accordingly, in real-time instead of long after the damage is done.

Don't make a spectacle out of it- just fix it.
 
Last edited:

gcouyant

Farkin Advertiser
With absolute respect to you & the other YTT volunteers who've been working in Candlebark, George, I too share grave concerns at not only what you're promoting, with regards to the area being publicised as a conglomeration of "all-weather" trails, but also the very distinct autocratic mono-culture that has developed within the Yarra Tracks & Trails community interest group; something that is now unfortunately translating across what could be considered once intrinsic trail values of that part of the Yarra Trail network. No question, there are things that need to be removed, areas that need extensive rehabilitation & improvements made (both in terms of how riders engage with the area & how they feel encouraged to engage with you/yourselves) in Candlebark, but it's a situation that while being successful for you in formalising your relationship with PV has unfortunately continued to fracture & drive away a large number of people within the community whose historical & technical knowledge would be invaluable to the YTT group, & Parks Victoria, whilst also missing a great opportunity for you to not only preserve & enhance the existing trails but also the user experience for all levels of rider across the XC/trail disciplines.

The work you guys are doing, in the interest of preserving & legitimately establishing the area as a legal portion of an extensive network founded, created & tirelessly maintained by mtbers before you, is fantastic & the efforts appreciated, however as a self-appointed body (& in your case, the leader of) it's unfortunate when you come onto a forum such as this & start throwing labels about & soap-boxing, irrespective of how entitled you might feel you are to do so.

From what I can see & understand going by your images, both historically & from an IMBA framework perspective, clearly there are a number of drainage issues that need to be addressed & revised through that section along with others. I'm sure whoever has made those small 'eye-sores' was merely providing a temporary measure/solution to what certainly appears to be a recurring issue. Undoubtedly they've staved off what would otherwise be extensive damage to that corner given the propensity & insistence for an extraordinary number of tiny-brained MTB & CX riders to ride the network when it's very wet. Rather than you being divisive & throwing labels such as 'serial pest' around, take it on board, mark & note the location & remedy the drainage properly. Particularly if you're going to try & promote the area as being suitable for year-round riding. It's winter, which means wet days out there & the need for regular real-time assessing of how various areas are coping; noting & amending the trail accordingly, in real-time instead of long after the damage is done.

Don't make a spectacle out of it- just fix it.
It’s the people who created these trails that are working *with* Parks now. Been at it for 30 years but you won’t find any of us claiming ownership. Indeed, the opposite and eager to have everyone out there enjoying every aspect of MTB in the area – legally and well managed. This part of the forum is about “Legal trail building discussion” after all.

Yes, there does seem to be a pronounced knee jerk reaction to wet trail from a couple of punters but contrary to the evidence. Feedback is consistently positive in that Candlebark trails are the best riding trails in the area. That is testament to Parks desire to deliver MTB trail to MTB enthusiasts.

So, to eliminate “spectacle”, everyone who has a passion for the trails is welcome to work with Parks and the group – including the “extraordinary number of tiny brained MTB and CX riders” as well as “serial pests”.

Moreover – and this is the important bit - to become cognisant of the trail strategy, eliminate inappropriate ad-hoc works and participate legally on what is now legal trail. Hence, invitations for all with a stake in the area. Dead easy. It’s not rocket science - Work with, don’t fight against Parks Vic.

Again, dead easy.

Hope that helps.
 

gcouyant

Farkin Advertiser
Hi Guys,

I though this appropriate to post here and now. A copy of an email sent to the trail volunteer group about an informative trail ride with the old-time trail fairies who created these trails. Should be a bunch of laughs too.

Hello fellow volunteers,

If you’d like an insight into the history of the Candlebark trail network, we’re organising an informative ride through the area with the very people who created it; along with much of the trail along the Yarra corridor.

We’re getting the band back together and aiming for Sunday 31[SUP]st[/SUP] July. Hans, Bruce, Greg, myself and perhaps a couple of Parks rangers if we can swing it. It should be fun and informative.

The event is about the ride, not the riding so it’ll be easy going indeed…… And a few laughs as well no doubt.

More details to follow soon however if I could have an idea of numbers please, it’ll help sort out a couple of logistic issues we need to deal with first.

Cheers
George
 

Big JD

Wheel size expert
It’s the people who created these trails that are working *with* Parks now. Been at it for 30 years but you won’t find any of us claiming ownership. Indeed, the opposite and eager to have everyone out there enjoying every aspect of MTB in the area – legally and well managed. This part of the forum is about “Legal trail building discussion” after all.

Yes, there does seem to be a pronounced knee jerk reaction to wet trail from a couple of punters but contrary to the evidence. Feedback is consistently positive in that Candlebark trails are the best riding trails in the area. That is testament to Parks desire to deliver MTB trail to MTB enthusiasts.

So, to eliminate “spectacle”, everyone who has a passion for the trails is welcome to work with Parks and the group – including the “extraordinary number of tiny brained MTB and CX riders” as well as “serial pests”.

Moreover – and this is the important bit - to become cognisant of the trail strategy, eliminate inappropriate ad-hoc works and participate legally on what is now legal trail. Hence, invitations for all with a stake in the area. Dead easy. It’s not rocket science - Work with, don’t fight against Parks Vic.

Again, dead easy.

Hope that helps.

Not really
 

redbruce

Eats Squid
Hi Guys,

I though this appropriate to post here and now. A copy of an email sent to the trail volunteer group about an informative trail ride with the old-time trail fairies who created these trails. Should be a bunch of laughs too.

Hello fellow volunteers,

If you’d like an insight into the history of the Candlebark trail network, we’re organising an informative ride through the area with the very people who created it; along with much of the trail along the Yarra corridor.

We’re getting the band back together and aiming for Sunday 31[SUP]st[/SUP] July. Hans, Bruce, Greg, myself and perhaps a couple of Parks rangers if we can swing it. It should be fun and informative.

The event is about the ride, not the riding so it’ll be easy going indeed…… And a few laughs as well no doubt.

More details to follow soon however if I could have an idea of numbers please, it’ll help sort out a couple of logistic issues we need to deal with first.

Cheers
George
Ran into and chatted to Hans myself a few months ago. He was riding a CX bike.

Hans likes a chat, isn't precious about Candlebark (including naming conventions), and is supportive of recent developments in the area, including PV onboarding.

He also likes to ride.

Should be a great discussion/interaction.

History always fascinates
 

velolove

Likes Dirt
Been at it for 30 years but you won’t find any of us claiming ownership.
Except for the trail you named after yourself right?

Yes, there does seem to be a pronounced knee jerk reaction to wet trail from a couple of punters but contrary to the evidence.
Yep that's how the puddle was drained just kicked out the offending leaf litter and top soil to let the trail drain freely. I had called parks vic to ask them to fix it but they just laughed at me.

Feedback is consistently positive in that Candlebark trails are the best riding trails in the area. That is due to the candle bark trails being on higher ground
Fixed that for you

So, to eliminate “spectacle”, everyone who attends our trail care days will have to wear Low Viz to work with Parks and the group
fixed that for you too

Moreover – and this is the important bit - to become cognisant of the trail strategy, eliminate inappropriate ad-hoc works and participate legally on what is now legal trail. Hence, invitations for all with a stake in the area. Dead easy. It’s not rocket science - Work with, don’t fight against Parks Vic.
I must confess I saw a small leafy branch on the trails and I committed inappropriate ad-hoc works without prior approval and I wish to be to punished with full force of the laws surrounding inconsistent legal trail management.
 
Last edited:

gcouyant

Farkin Advertiser
OMG, at some point we're going to have to stop giving oxygen to this..... I had to see for myself what the fuss is about. For the sake of fairness to all, a Parks friend and I rode every inch of Candlebark trails yesterday afternoon and it was the best fun trail ride we'd had for a long time. A couple of wet spots over a hard base and all of the quagmire of years gone by has been eliminated by the hard work of the volunteer group.

Ironically, the part that was causing most damage to the trail was again inappropriate and unauthorised works at the top of the Upper Switchbacks where someone had begun placing daisy chains of rocks along the edge of the trail. It had already started to dam the wide runoff that the group had aligned earlier in the year. Damming runoff like that causes high volume and high velocity water flow over a longer distance - which quickly kills trail.



One of those moments where we both stop and look and just wonder what on earth prompts riders to do this. Hopefully the rocker is on this forum to read this - we extend an invitation to you and your friends to register (http://www.yarratrails.com.au/) and become involved with properly managed, legal and insured trail care of the authorised trail.

Experiences that Parks has from other authorised MTB trails is that it's a tough problem to crack. Peer group pressure seems to be about the only thing that is successful in permanently addressing the problems created by unauthorised actions of a few that reflect badly upon the rest of the MTB community.

- Create and care for compelling and challenging MTB trail
- Give all trail enthusiasts the opportunity to learn and be involved with any and all aspects of trail care and development
- Legally and with the blessing of the relevant authorities

As an aside; for big jobs, my Father used to say that "the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time". Which is exactly what Parks Vic and our group of enthusiastic volunteers is doing at Candlebark Park in order to deliver the above. :applause: At some point the message *has* to get through.
 

Matt C

Likes Dirt
Matt, there's a team of some 60 local volunteers including the very people who created these trails over the past three decades. We all work with Parks to deliver Parks (and our) vision of compelling and exciting trail for all to enjoy all year round. Moreover, to put a stop to ad-hoc and inappropriate actions of a few. You don't go digging trenches in the trail at the You Yangs or Lysterfield do you? - And shouldn't here.
Actually, I have drained puddles at both of those places. More discreetly and neater than the example in the photo though so it wasn't really noticed. Unless you and your group is out there every weekend to assess your work to see if it was successful in keeping lying water off the trail, it's fine for someone else to drain it to cause less damage.

The fact is, the southern sections of the Yarra Trails have been managed by one person in particular for a long time without any sort of official governing body. ( I'm sure there are more that I'm not aware of that I have not met yet) After riding with this guy, I left with more love for the trails than ever and after being encouraged to do my part as much as possible, I did, and do continue to when time allows. The biggest take away from that ride was that even though the amount of work he has put into the trails, he does not feel any sense of ownership, just pride in his work. I don't feel that that's the sort of relationship that is being offered by those managing Hans. The way it is managed just rubs me the wrong way.
 

gcouyant

Farkin Advertiser
Actually, I have drained puddles at both of those places.
Matt are you registered with the volunteer group? You do realize that input comes from all members who attend work days don’t you?

Good grief, Parks has been trying to put a stop to the unauthorised works downstream for over a year now. Recent trail work is contrary to the plan to authorise trail. The constant digging has effectively robbed MTB riders and Parks from delivering properly managed MTB trail because trail cannot be authorised and insured until after the guerrilla work has stopped. That is a hotbed of ad-hoc frustration for everyone.

Pissing in your wet suit makes you feel warm but riding the perfect wave is what satisfies for life. It’s the same with MTB trail.

Matt, again and again, you’re invited to register at www.yarratrails.com.au and get in on caring for trail. You won’t find a more eager bunch of enthusiasts. Who knows, you might also get a kick out of the volunteer ride at the end of this month with a bunch of riders who created and care for Candelbark trail.
 
Let's all take a deep breath...in 3...2...1... And exhale. Shake those arms & legs out.

Bruce & George, you & the YTT volunteers are doing some really good things in Candlebark & I have no doubt whatsoever that what you're all trying to establish is indeed being done with the 'greater good' & the trails in mind. The fact that you've 60 people down for your volunteer-base speaks volumes in terms of how many people care enough about Candebark (& the YTs in general) to be willing to lend a hand in the preservation & enhancement of the area's trail network. You're working towards, & bit by bit achieving, something that I know many of us YT long-terms had hoped we'd see.

One of the encouraging milestones you guys are reaching (aside from your maintenance works) is getting to the point of naming the network. From the perspective of asset management & coordinating volunteer work crews with maintenance scheduling needs, it makes absolute sense to break the wider 'Han's Loop' down into respective sections with their own corresponding names. And no- couldn't care less what the names are & the GSB acronym is somewhat of a logical choice. One of the great things about the entire Candlebark area is that in the event that weather factors or upgrade works require that a section/s be closed to protect the trail, then excellent access to the core firetrails provides great rerouting options for riders. As I noticed by your FB post, Bruce, it's also encouraging to see you looking at reducing the number of names from the proposed 10+. Am sure we can all agree that it's overkill & makes the place sound like a noodle bowl of chaos i.e. the thing that everyone's trying to avoid, land managers included. I'm sure you could comfortably refine them down to 5-6 names max, & then within your own YTT maintenance maps sub-segment each of those individual trails into two parts so your trail teams have an accurate visual reference of their respective work areas or areas requiring urgent attention as things arise, which would then obviously also serve as a great reference tool for both yourselves & PV to build a joint maintenance & asset management framework around.

I'm unaware of what exactly has happened in the past (sometime around YTT's inception point) in terms of what was said & done, thereby becoming the catalyst for fall-out between certain people, members on RB & yourselves, & at the end of the day that's something you & the respective parties, together, are going to have to build a bridge & get over, in a constructive & conducive manner. Namely for the sake of not making public bloody asses out of your selves because the childish political underwear airing that seems to surface is unhealthy for all concerned. I don't have a bias towards either of the conflicting people in the political side of that drama, I do however consider a number of you on all sides as friends. One thing that can't be disputed is that a certain person or people, whether feeling jilted or a sense of their authority or contribution threatened, on one side of the stupid metaphorical fence you've built between yourselves, has been somewhat morally unethical or questionable in terms of their actions & some of their borderline slanderous words. Correspondingly it's generated an understandable ill-will & now you're all twisted in each others knickers. This cycle has to stop. As an outsider looking in all I can say is this, you don't have to 'like' each other but you (speaking to both parties) do have to find a constructive way to get along & work together. Appreciate that at the end of the day you're all trying to achieve a common goal, but if biting your tongues & offering silence, in here & on public spaces such as open groups on FB pages, is your way of not getting political & instead is your measure of showing your support for one another, then so be it, bite those tongues. Likewise the inane tit-for-tat has to stop.

George, let's avoid the word games. It's that very attitude I've just referenced above which gave cause for my post a couple of day ago. Stop it.

I empathise with your frustration, but don't take Eye-Sore's work as being an attack on you, the YTT group or PV. Accept that it's just part of YTT's challenges in educating riders/the public, along with the need for someone/s from YTT to be out there traipsing around in the wet, with shovel in hand, doing that kind of eye-sore & public relations work until the drainage issues are reasonably resolved by yourselves. It is what it is. Yes, it's unfortunate but let's not go over the top by inferring that the individual/s, who've actually taken reasonable & measured initiative to provide a temporary solution to a recurring problem of yours, have gone & created a situation which is compromising your relationship with PV in Candlebark. Neither Brendan, Faye, Ion, Warren or Tim are that short sighted. If there's a problem, fix the problem. If a problem needs to be voiced, be constructive in how you voice it instead of throwing mud.

As per our discussion on RB this time last year, I implore you, George, Bruce & the rest of the people involved in Candlebark, to be responsible & reassess, or be a bit more considered, in what you are promoting & facilitating. Given the You Yangs drains 100x better & isn't all-condition it's reckless to publicly promote Candlebark/Han's as being suitable for riding in any condition & there needs to be proactive steps taken to encourage people not to ride the trails/certain areas during the wetter months i.e. your preparedness for closures, signage for temporary closures & rider education on the need to have trail closures at certain times. Whether you like it or not the lack of rider education there, or the lack of a rider education offering by the YTT group, directly translates not only as increased & needless maintenance cost to your volunteers, PV & the Candlebark network, but it then becomes a significant & corresponding contributor to the subsequent degradation & destruction of the surrounding YT network. You inadvertently become a direct contributor to the broader problem during the wetter months.

I'm moving on to another geographical chapter of my life after 16yrs of calling the Yarra Trails home, so where it (the YTs) goes from here is inconsequential to me & entirely up to all of you, but you guys are in the twilight of an awfully exciting time for MTBing in Victoria & Melbourne. What lies ahead is filled with an incredible amount of potential & continued positive progression for trail development & advocacy. And most importantly, it should be an incredibly conducive time for you all to be connecting, mobilising & coming together to achieve that common goal of legitimising mtbs on the YT network while educating & fostering positive rider culture. Likewise the formalising & linking together of different volunteer groups under PVs auspices, as a series of group entities with similar structures, mission statements, all answerable to each others internal democratic hierarchy & Parks Victoria, collectively care-taking the extensive network of single track which forms the greater Yarra Trails.

Build that bridge, guys. Be dudes, don't be dicks.
 
Last edited:

Kerplunk

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I had to see for myself what the fuss is about. For the sake of fairness to all, a Parks friend and I rode every inch of Candlebark trails yesterday afternoon and it was the best fun trail ride we'd had for a long time. A couple of wet spots over a hard base and all of the quagmire of years gone by has been eliminated by the hard work of the volunteer group.
In fairness too gcouyant, i rode hans today.. Call me anal, but I counted 54 drainage cuts (give or take a few). That's a lot of puddles drained! Don't you reckon that could have contributed signifigantly to the enjoyment the ride + the lack of wet bits? Some cuts were neatly done and covered with sticks/leaves so certainly not all are butchering the trail.. Some cuts worked/some didn't.
Overall the trails are holding up well, but a little away from being all weather though imo.
YT group are doing a great job, keep up the good work. I'm not in the game of bagging out others shovel work if I haven't done the same. Just pointing out that without the drainage cuts the trails would have been in far worse nick, whether they were created legally or not.
 
Last edited:

gcouyant

Farkin Advertiser
In fairness too gcouyant, i rode hans today.. Call me anal, but I counted 54 drainage cuts (give or take a few). That's a lot of puddles drained! Don't you reckon that could have contributed signifigantly to the enjoyment the ride + the lack of wet bits? Some cuts were neatly done and covered with sticks/leaves so certainly not all are butchering the trail.. Some cuts worked/some didn't.
Overall the trails are holding up well, but a little away from being all weather though imo.
YT group are doing a great job, keep up the good work. I'm not in the game of bagging out others shovel work if I haven't done the same. Just pointing out that without the drainage cuts the trails would have been in far worse nick, whether they were created legally or not.

Glad you enjoyed it K – it has been good riding indeed. Yes, we saw those trenches on the last ride and empty puddles does make for an easier ride. Clearly they were well-meaning actions that will certainly benefit through cooperation.

Given the high use that Candlebark has, the strategy over the past year or so has been to attack the cause of problem low spots rather than trying to continually address the symptoms by draining deepening depressions.

Let's see if I can explain it clearly.

In much of this area, this trenching strategy had accelerated the symptoms long term because it created a cycle of accelerated deepening – particularly on sections of trail that normally had light tyre pressure on them. Soon after small trenches like those are dug, the puddle drains but deepens the depression and the drain quickly blocks again – generally within 24 hours. That fills with the next rain and when the trench is opened again, the depression deepens further. And so on. An artifact is that each time the supporting area around the depression becomes more water logged.

The area had a history of trenching and a stroll back through correspondence archives shows that every winter, the area was a mess.

To address this in cooperation with Parks Vic, the strategy has involved removing traditional draining trenches and profiling low areas to shed water over a wide area and to reduce water volume and velocity.

In an effort to assist with understanding the process, let me share some of the planning that occurs with Parks Vic to address just this one maintenance and management issue. Below is an example of the scope of works from a single work session over a year ago that details the scope of works discussed with Parks and agreed to *prior* to conducting works.

See: http://www.yarratrails.com.au/trailwork/2015-06-14/candlebark-work.html

That was part of the trenching eradication program with Parks and involved a degree of education for all because it was a break from the traditional ad hoc approach of years gone by.

So after all is said and done, this is live trail that evolves so it would be better to have a cooperative approach to caring for trail and to build up not down. Again, if anyone would like to be involved they are welcome to register at www.yarratrails.com.au and participate with trail care.

Hope that adds insight into one of the strategies for the long term solution.
 

trav

Likes Dirt
Glad you enjoyed it K – it has been good riding indeed. Yes, we saw those trenches on the last ride and empty puddles does make for an easier ride. Clearly they were well-meaning actions that will certainly benefit through cooperation.

Given the high use that Candlebark has, the strategy over the past year or so has been to attack the cause of problem low spots rather than trying to continually address the symptoms by draining deepening depressions.

Let's see if I can explain it clearly.

In much of this area, this trenching strategy had accelerated the symptoms long term because it created a cycle of accelerated deepening – particularly on sections of trail that normally had light tyre pressure on them. Soon after small trenches like those are dug, the puddle drains but deepens the depression and the drain quickly blocks again – generally within 24 hours. That fills with the next rain and when the trench is opened again, the depression deepens further. And so on. An artifact is that each time the supporting area around the depression becomes more water logged.

The area had a history of trenching and a stroll back through correspondence archives shows that every winter, the area was a mess.

To address this in cooperation with Parks Vic, the strategy has involved removing traditional draining trenches and profiling low areas to shed water over a wide area and to reduce water volume and velocity.

In an effort to assist with understanding the process, let me share some of the planning that occurs with Parks Vic to address just this one maintenance and management issue. Below is an example of the scope of works from a single work session over a year ago that details the scope of works discussed with Parks and agreed to *prior* to conducting works.

See: http://www.yarratrails.com.au/trailwork/2015-06-14/candlebark-work.html

That was part of the trenching eradication program with Parks and involved a degree of education for all because it was a break from the traditional ad hoc approach of years gone by.

So after all is said and done, this is live trail that evolves so it would be better to have a cooperative approach to caring for trail and to build up not down. Again, if anyone would like to be involved they are welcome to register at www.yarratrails.com.au and participate with trail care.

Hope that adds insight into one of the strategies for the long term solution.

That method in the "Scope of works" is about as 5 years out of date also,in about 5 years time you will understand why.

Good luck with it all , at least its a start.
 

gcouyant

Farkin Advertiser
That method in the "Scope of works" is about as 5 years out of date also,in about 5 years time you will understand why.

Good luck with it all , at least its a start.
Hi Trav,

Perhaps this bit wasn't sufficiently clear - build up not down but by all means if you have further insight or conflicting evidence then please do join in with discussions between the group of volunteers, Parks and the land care professionals who determine the strategy for this area. This is a group effort but please feel free to contact me or any of the admin team directly if you want. admin@yarratrails.com.au

I (and we) feel that everyone who has an interest should have the opportunity to have input and to be involved.
 
Last edited:

trav

Likes Dirt
Build up for sure, but with some down also.

But from the photo's and the suggested method of repair , ill bet my balls most will fail.

Who ever is doing the planning I can tell, has limited trail work experience .Id be interested to know who are land care proffesionals any way?
 
Top