Suggestion: Pics with No Helmets

Ivan

Eats Squid
The rumours of helmets causing neck injuries are probably just that...rumours. And, there are sites like these that propagate them

http://www.usff.com/hldl/



HELMETS OFTEN KILL RIDERS

Helmets Break Necks In At Least Three Ways:

1. The Hangman's Noose Analogy -- A case report by the Naval Safety Center introduced this analogy in the early 1970's in a report entitled "The Cervicocranium and the Aviator's Protective Helmet."

The report reads: "The inferior edge of the helmet, when visualized as part of the continuous circle completed by the nape strap and the chin strap, forms a loop that can be likened to a hangman's noose. The analogy might be further extended to include the lesions made about the neck by the straps or the edge of the helmet, paralleling the abrasions and contusions that might be associated with a rope having encircled the same structures. When the know is situated at the side of the head, such a hangman's noose produces fractures of the base of the skull, tending to extend bitemporally through the basisphoenoid."

Referencing a specific case, they continued, "One interesting and compelling aircraft accident investigated by the Naval Safety Center, Norfolk, Va., served to emphasize the practical application of their theoretical exercise. A Navy A-4 jet aircraft experienced difficulties in flight which caused the pilot to eject at an altitude, attitude, and air speed that were within the operating envelope of the ejection seat. Supported by a fully blossomed functioning parachute, however, the pilot reached the ground severely injured and died shortly after the accident, as a result of a transverse laceration of the cervical spinal cord."

"The details of the investigation established that the energy responsible for the fatal lesion was transmitted through the helmet and its inferior edge, into the neck. A vertebral dislocation resulted, which in turn severed the spinal cord."

This is undoubtedly what happened to McAfee. A blow to the side of the helmet, mild as it may have been, was just enough to have broken his neck and damaged his spinal cord sufficiently to have left him helplessly crippled. It is interesting to note that the very same type of impact was survived by Gary Bussy, who now claims that helmets save lives. It is interesting to consider that had Bussy been wearing a helmet when his head hit the curb, the combination of chin strap and helmet may have left him crippled for life, or even dead, rather than just mildly (relative to fatally) injured -- with only questionable brain damage as the end result.

2. The "Helmet Fulcrum" Scenario -- This study is another in Holt's bag of helmet facts.

In this study, the principles of engineering are studied as opposed to NHTSA's obsession with "head count" figures -- figures that will ultimately say whatever NHTSA wants them to say.

The "head count" method of evaluating helmet safety used primarily by NHTSA to support their standard has no place in the professional practice of safety engineering. There is no need for accidents to occur in order to establish foreseeability so that corrective action may be taken.

The "helmet fulcrum" investigation was initiated by preparing an illustrative drawing (Figure 2). An average man was drawn showing extension of the articular assembly, which constitutes the head-neck assembly. It can be seen that even in normal extension the helmet has met the cervical column at the third and forth vertical vertebrae and acts as a fulcrum to resist or oppose the force of translation of the head relative to the thorax.

This translation of the "helmet fulcrum" scenario means as force is applied to the front of the helmet and the head is forced back, the victims neck is either sheered severing the spinal cord and instantly killing the victim, or the spine is hyperextended and the chances of total paralysis and lingering death are certain in most instances.

In general, helmet design emphasis has been placed on cranial impact protection together with product appearance and cost factors -- particularly in relation to the FMVSS 218 standard which we have already described as being formed virtually by the Bell Helmet Company, and merely adopted to suit their needs by NHTSA's engineers.

No one we have contacted, especially Holt, has been able to confirm that this "helmet fulcrum" scenario has ever been considered, much less plausibly rejected, by the NHTSA safety engineers.

3. Damage To The Brain Stem From The Chin-bar On The Full-face Helmet -- This illustration (Figure 3) has been around for a while, almost long enough that one would think NHTSA would have seen it and done something about it by now -- if their concern were truly rider safety.

As the figure indicates, a blow to the chin-bar translates into yet one more way to hyperextend the spinal cord and bring about instant paralysis or death.

In most instances helmets used for sporting activities provide the use with cranial impact protection and have reduced injuries and associated deaths caused by these same helmets. A review of the maximum amplitude and velocity of movement of the head to thorax linkage for extension/hyperextension, as related to helmet design, revealed serious design deficiencies in helmets which readily comply with NHTSA's so-called safety standard. It is evident that protection should prevent injuries, not cause them, and protection of one part of the body at the expense of another is not an acceptable design philosophy. In other words, FMVSS 218 sucks!

When asked, "Will you guarantee that a helmet meeting these standards will protect a rider in a collision?" NHTSA will answer something along the lines of, "A helmet which passes our performance standards is considered in compliance with the provisions of FMVSS 218, and therefore in compliance with the law." and nothing more.
 

ilostmypassword

Likes Dirt
No helmet = death of a stupid person = natural selection :)

As for shouting that word "Law" about- remember kids this is Australia- convicts don't respond well to the law. End of story :) Arf arf.
 
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PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
No doubt inspired by an callous, indifferent media willing to display pictures of helmetless riders

courtesy of The Age...

Police charge cyclist over bank robbery

November 13, 2007 - 6:33AM


Police in Victoria's north-east have caught a man who allegedly robbed a bank and made his getaway on a bicycle.

A man entered the Westpac bank in Murphy Street, Wangaratta, north-east of Melbourne, about 2.45pm yesterday, Victoria Police said.

He approached a teller and allegedly demanded they hand over money, a police spokeswoman said.

"He left the bank with a small amount of cash," she said. "The man was last seen escaping on a bicycle heading north in Murphy Street."

Police arrested a 40-year-old man, from Wangaratta, several hours after the robbery in nearby Ovens Street.

He has been charged with robbery and remanded in custody until his appearance in the Wangaratta Magistrates court today, police said.

AAP
 

leitch

Feelin' a bit rrranty
I don't ACTUALLY want to have to talk to Legal people about what some idiot said on an internet forum.
Have a read of this, Derek:

http://forums.farkin.net/showthread.php?t=99680&highlight=sue


For the record, even if some punter was saying that 661 stuff was shit on an internet forum, not only is there nothing you can do about it, but there are still thousands of people out there with the money in their wallets who will be buying your product, so what's the problem? 661 is a brand with a good rep which will itself, so maybe you would have been better just to let that slide. You haven't actually defended your product here, you've made things worse by making yourself look like an agressive over zealous distributor.

Lastly, Derek, this forum is a place where anonymous members can throw around their opinions, experiences and even their 2nd hand knowledge about products, services and all things riding related, and those opinions/experiences aren't always going to be good ones. Do you see Marcus jumping on here threatening legal action whenever someone says that Manitou forks are shit because they snap easily and their seals blow too easily? Maybe you should develop a thicker hide.
 

projectsplat

The film guy
Have a read of this, Derek:

http://forums.farkin.net/showthread.php?t=99680&highlight=sue


For the record, even if some punter was saying that 661 stuff was shit on an internet forum, not only is there nothing you can do about it, but there are still thousands of people out there with the money in their wallets who will be buying your product, so what's the problem? 661 is a brand with a good rep which will itself, so maybe you would have been better just to let that slide. You haven't actually defended your product here, you've made things worse by making yourself look like an agressive over zealous distributor.

Lastly, Derek, this forum is a place where anonymous members can throw around their opinions, experiences and even their 2nd hand knowledge about products, services and all things riding related, and those opinions/experiences aren't always going to be good ones. Do you see Marcus jumping on here threatening legal action whenever someone says that Manitou forks are shit because they snap easily and their seals blow too easily? Maybe you should develop a thicker hide.
Nice link there Leitch. I was searching for it myself.

Derek, there are two ways you can interact with a forum when you are a distributor/manufacturer/service provider. There are many examples on this site of the aforementioned doing both very well and very badly.

The way people feel about your business is being influenced right now, not by anything Kizza or anyone else has said, but by your words. Choose them carefully.

Best of luck,

Alister
- I actually quite like SixSixOne products. Their gloves are great.

Edit : On Topic.
This is why you should always wear full face helmets for downhill kids....





Luckily, I at least had a normal lid on, and this significantly reduced the amount of brain damage I sustained in the accident.
 

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Derek Yates

Soul Rider
Certainly interesting reading. That is a little different to this situation. I think we are getting a little off the point I was making tho.

For the record, even if some punter was saying that 661 stuff was shit on an internet forum, not only is there nothing you can do about it, but there are still thousands of people out there with the money in their wallets who will be buying your product, so what's the problem? 661 is a brand with a good rep which will itself, so maybe you would have been better just to let that slide. You haven't actually defended your product here, you've made things worse by making yourself look like an agressive over zealous distributor.
Maybe I sounded too aggressive but I think my point was valid. The thing I had issue with was that our brand was linked to something that WASN'T TRUE. If someone just doesn't like our stuff well too bad for me but I won't cry about it. There is a difference between the two.

Lastly, Derek, this forum is a place where anonymous members can throw around their opinions, experiences and even their 2nd hand knowledge about products, services and all things riding related, and those opinions/experiences aren't always going to be good ones. Do you see Marcus jumping on here threatening legal action whenever someone says that Manitou forks are shit because they snap easily and their seals blow too easily? Maybe you should develop a thicker hide.
I do know how a forum works, thanks for that. Discussion is good. Solving problems is good. I don't have to LIKE people bagging stuff out for no reason but I KNOW there is nothing that can be done about it. Again that's not what I'm talking about. If I started making comments on the forum about you personally that might affect your day to day life but were not true would you just cop it? Would you feel that you should develop a thicker hide? Seriously, I think I have made my point here a number of times and I am NOT trying to limit comment on products, services or anything that forums are good for.

I'm not going to keep commenting on this thread and reply to everyone individually. I will stand by what I have written so far.
 

toodles

Wheel size expert
Meh, I'm with Derek on this one. It must suck being either a manufacturer or distributor and having your brand name tarnished by crap all the time. I reckon most of the industry folks I see on forums have much more patience/tolerance than I can see myself having.

Problem with saying something like "661 helmets killed a bunch of people once" is that for every 10 forum members who read that - 8 will take it with a grain of salt, 1 will go home and burn his 661 helmet and 1 will repeat it in other threads and real life conversations about 5 times.

Sure most of us don't care or can see through the BS, but it's part of these guys' livelihoods. Everyday on every forum I see people making some pretty outlandish statements about products. Problem is eventually enough mud gets thrown that some of it sticks.

It's even more frustrating when someone says "brand X is notorious for breaking" like it's fact. Then when someone questions them about their statement they respond with "oh I was just using brand X as an example" or "well - I don't know for sure but it's what I was told".
 

toodles

Wheel size expert
Lastly, Derek, this forum is a place where anonymous members can throw around their opinions, experiences and even their 2nd hand knowledge about products, services and all things riding related, and those opinions/experiences aren't always going to be good ones.
Yeah that's a fair call. Actual experience with products is essential to a forum. Opinions are also an important part of a forum. It's when opinion is passed off as experience or fact that problems occur. Slandering stuff you have no idea about is one way to reduce your credibility immensely.
 

leitch

Feelin' a bit rrranty
Yeah that's a fair call. Actual experience with products is essential to a forum. Opinions are also an important part of a forum. It's when opinion is passed off as experience or fact that problems occur. Slandering stuff you have no idea about is one way to reduce your credibility immensely.
Absolutely, I totally agree with you. BUT, threatening legal action for someone posting heresay on a forum is a far cry from telling them to pull their head in. And in this case, I'd say it was totally unwarranted and over the top. To even consider using the term "slander" to label Kizza01's post is so far from the mark its not funny. There was quite evidently no malicious intent, and he was just pointing out a "well, wearing helmets can be just as dangerous as not wearing them" point of view, which Derek jumped on and tore to pieces.

This whole thing is incredibly similar to the problems had in the past with Technoboy, and I just think that distributors and retailers need to think a bit harder before jumping down someone's throat on an internet forum. Being so aggressive in the protection of ones' product can be even more detrimental to your business than letting a bit of heresay slide - noone wants to buy stuff from a wanker importer.
 

toodles

Wheel size expert
Absolutely, I totally agree with you. BUT, threatening legal action for someone posting heresay on a forum is a far cry from telling them to pull their head in. And in this case, I'd say it was totally unwarranted and over the top. To even consider using the term "slander" to label Kizza01's post is so far from the mark its not funny. There was quite evidently no malicious intent, and he was just pointing out a "well, wearing helmets can be just as dangerous as not wearing them" point of view, which Derek jumped on and tore to pieces.

This whole thing is incredibly similar to the problems had in the past with Technoboy, and I just think that distributors and retailers need to think a bit harder before jumping down someone's throat on an internet forum. Being so aggressive in the protection of ones' product can be even more detrimental to your business than letting a bit of heresay slide - noone wants to buy stuff from a wanker importer.
Yep fair call. Too far, too quickly I reckon. Luckily with most popular products, distributors and manufacturers can rely on other forum members ripping shit through the offender without them even having to lift a finger. A few of the industry guys know this too...

Shit - jump on RM and post up some obvious crap about IronHorse Sundays (worst pedalling bike evah!!1!1ONE!1 - should do nicely) and I reckon you could use an egg-timer to measure how long it takes to get either banned or just thoroughly raped by the otehr forum members.
 

noballz

Likes Dirt
Going back to the original post, I have to agree with RicedRocket. What is wrong with Farkin being more socially responsible, taking a stand, and saying 'hey we feel that whenever you ride you should wear a helmet and in order to use this forum you have to support this stance'. It sure beats the current stance of trying to get everyone to use old skool English.
 

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
Going back to the original post, I have to agree with RicedRocket. What is wrong with Farkin being more socially responsible, taking a stand, and saying 'hey we feel that whenever you ride you should wear a helmet and in order to use this forum you have to support this stance'. It sure beats the current stance of trying to get everyone to use old skool English.
Farkin is not a nanny state but lack of effort when posting annoys those who have the power. Haven't you been paying attention, child?
 

sikpuppyonglory

Likes Dirt
man that is some serious eyes, ears & nose bleeding shit right there. :eek:
riced rocket I understand where you were coming from, but don't try to ban shit being put onto a forum, just because you don't like it or think it immoral, you were young once & probably did some worse shit than what has been shown on this site.

The old saying goes: If you don't like it, don't look at it.

Kids will be kids & as ryan stated that we are not these kids parents, so we would get told to go fly a kite by them if we said "Put your helmet on"

I do love wearing my fullface all the time, but one day even it won't protect me.

So don't go holding your breath thinking you can stop a couple of photo's being shown of somebody not wearing a helmet while riding.

It is a freedom to choose whether you want to have a fullfilling life or to spend the rest of your days being a vegetable. No I don't condone thinking that people should become a vege anyway, but you can't change a stupid person & their stupid thinking.:cool:
 

S.

ex offender
Going back to the original post, I have to agree with RicedRocket. What is wrong with Farkin being more socially responsible, taking a stand, and saying 'hey we feel that whenever you ride you should wear a helmet and in order to use this forum you have to support this stance'. It sure beats the current stance of trying to get everyone to use old skool English.
We're not a government mate. Seriously, how hard is it to understand: everyone has the right to choose for themselves, because ultimately it's only themselves they put at risk. If you really think everyone needs to be told to wear a helmet, you are showing a total lack of respect for anyone's ability to make a choice, which probably says something about your own.

As for the English thing, we ask people just to make an effort - all a forum is for is communication, and if you're going to just be super lazy with how you type, it's made unnecessarily difficult and annoying.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
I assume we should also delete any and all photos that display ostensibly "illegal" activities? Riding illegal trails? Riding in State Forests without a permit? Taking a hand off the bars while riding? Failing to indicate? Grinding ledges and rails (malicious mischief)? Where exactly do we draw the line?
You forgot all the photos of people riding bikes not fitted with the required reflectors and warning devices.

Any photo of a bike without a bell should most definitely be deleted right now before the kids start pulling theirs off :cool:
 

noballz

Likes Dirt
That's it. I'm taking my bags and going home :p

Farkin is not a nanny state but lack of effort when posting annoys those who have the power. Haven't you been paying attention, child?
riced rocket I understand where you were coming from, but don't try to ban shit being put onto a forum, just because you don't like it or think it immoral, you were young once & probably did some worse shit than what has been shown on this site.

Kids will be kids & as ryan stated that we are not these kids parents, so we would get told to go fly a kite by them if we said "Put your helmet on"

So don't go holding your breath thinking you can stop a couple of photo's being shown of somebody not wearing a helmet while riding.
I am not suggesting that someone goes and bathes, clothes and feeds people. All I am saying is that Farkin should set a good example for the community that it is a part of.

Whether you accept it or not, the fact is that Farkin is one of, if not the biggest MTB forum around. It has a lot of readers who will be influenced by what they read and see. As such you could say that it is role model. As with all role models out there, there is an expectation that they set a good example for others to follow. All I am asking for is Farkin to step up to the plate.

If you really think everyone needs to be told to wear a helmet, you are showing a total lack of respect for anyone's ability to make a choice, which probably says something about your own.
In the last couple of years I have been told to eat more fruits and veges, wash my hands after using the toilet, etc :eek:. The people who dont wear helmets aren't 45 years old. Most of them are kids. If the people that influence them are not setting a good example for them to follow how are they going to make good decisions.

As for the English thing, we ask people just to make an effort - all a forum is for is communication, and if you're going to just be super lazy with how you type, it's made unnecessarily difficult and annoying.
I suppose I dont see it as being super lazy. I see it as a progression of the English language. It wouldnt surprise me if in the past people said similiar things when the langauge was evolving. What is Farkin going to do in 20-30 years time when evry gal & their cat, buk & nuspapa r riten lik dis. Is it going to stick to the glory days of the 80s.

I must say that I am surprised that only RicedRocket and I feel this way. If it was such a minority how on earth did helmet laws, seatbelt laws, censorship, and now the push for junk food advertising restrictions and a fat tax get off the ground. I was thinking that finally I wont be in the majority only to find out that there is just the two of us. Actually it is just me after you all scared her away.:(

Anyway thats all my puny brain can comprehend at the moment, which is why it needs to be told what to do. Move mouse over button. Right click.
 

|Matt|

Banned
Whether you accept it or not, the fact is that Farkin is one of, if not the biggest MTB forum around. It has a lot of readers who will be influenced by what they read and see. As such you could say that it is role model. As with all role models out there, there is an expectation that they set a good example for others to follow.
I somewhat agree, but I distinctly remember having drilled in to me 'no helmet, no bike'. I also distinctly remember seeing images of the consequences of not wearing a helmet. I don't think people are going to be influenced by seeing others not wear helmets. A lot of riders in the NWD series don't wear helmets, but I still do. I don't want pieces of my head on the ground while I'm being taken away in an ambulance.

It is the choice of the individual, you can't make them wear a helmet if they don't want to.
 

tu plang

knob
I suppose I dont see it as being super lazy. I see it as a progression of the English language. It wouldnt surprise me if in the past people said similiar things when the langauge was evolving. What is Farkin going to do in 20-30 years time when evry gal & their cat, buk & nuspapa r riten lik dis. Is it going to stick to the glory days of the 80s.

I must say that I am surprised that only RicedRocket and I feel this way. If it was such a minority how on earth did helmet laws, seatbelt laws, censorship, and now the push for junk food advertising restrictions and a fat tax get off the ground. I was thinking that finally I wont be in the majority only to find out that there is just the two of us. Actually it is just me after you all scared her away.:(

Anyway thats all my puny brain can comprehend at the moment, which is why it needs to be told what to do. Move mouse over button. Right click.
First of all, I'd just like to point out the the absolutely blind stubborness makes perfect sense now in light of RicedRockets gender ;) (if you are correct noballz. infact, do you too have no balls? serious question - you chose the name after all)

I don't remember voting on seatbelt or helmet laws, and last time i checked the people in government making decisions like aren't actually a majority of the population (though they are there to represent the majority.) I don't have a problem with the laws, infact I could probably live with it if there were no helmetless pics on farkin - i dont post pics very often and i only look at photos by the better known members. However, the principle is flawed. There is no legal obligation, just a load of extra work for the people who run the place and addition cause for shit fights when some 'n00b' posts a photo without a helmet. At best we satisfy the percieved moral obligation of 2 users and counting (although not very quickly).

During my time riding i've met a lot of riders ranging in age from 13 to 50. I've only ever met one person who had serious problems with the concept of wearing a helmet.

As Cat pointed out, do we then extend this to bells and reflecters with are also a legal obligation?

Would we be setting an example or just taking more responsibility than we need to?

As far as the English language is concerned, nobody I know talks or types the way you have described. That does not represent the evolution of the language, it represents the degradation of it. It will only go that we if we let it.
 
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