Suggestion: Pics with No Helmets

toodles

Wheel size expert
If it was such a minority how on earth did helmet laws, seatbelt laws, censorship, and now the push for junk food advertising restrictions and a fat tax get off the ground. I was thinking that finally I wont be in the majority only to find out that there is just the two of us
Well censorship is a bad example I must say. Just one more case of a vocal minority who try to restrict and control the rights of other individuals.

On one hand, I understand the original intention is to promote and encourage people to wear helmets. However, (a) is someone has already been told 5000 times to wear a helmet and they still don't want to, then I doubt the Farkin community will change their mind, (b) if kids are so impressionable, perhaps parents need to give them a bit moe incentive to wear a brain pan and (c) anyone who defies both common sense and the law to avoid wearing something to protect their brain, probably doesn't have a brain worth protecting.
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
This was first posted in the personal freedoms thread...

..where it prompted zero comment whatsover, however this thread is actually where it's more appropriate:

It isn't terribly great to be encouraging people to do stupid (or illegal) things. A long bow to draw but take the case of the guys encouraging a rape in the film "The Accused". If convicted, they are also guilty of a felony, even though they didn't take part. Now before everyone warms up their flame throwers, I'm not in any way likening riding helmetless to being involved in the perpetration of a pack rape. BUT I do have a few issues with certain bits of footage which effectivley encourage kids to do really stupid stuff (cough Jackass cough Josh Bender cough). Sure, you can put a "these people are professional fuktards, don't try this at home" disclaimer on the segment, but if it's still glorifying it and making it seem cool, then it will encourage some kids to try it. Same with filling arguably the most popular MTB site on the planet with buckets of pics of kids w/o helmets. If you make something seem cool then kids will try it. I mean, hell, there aren't too many folks who started smoking because they thought it'd taste good...

It's simply not good enough to have an attitude of "Oh, well if they're that stupid then they deserve to get hurt." That's crap. You don't see anyone ragging on Tom Patton or Johnny Wadell or Renee Junga and saying that they deserved to get hurt because they were doing a sport which was potentially hazardous. Do you consider every dirt jumper or downhiller deserving of being seriously injured?

Every time I open a magazine and I see a big glossy shot of someone doing a dirt jump without a helmet on, there's a bit of me that does get infuriated. I wish we weren't actively marketing that aspect of our sport because we all know that sooner or later there will be a kid somewhere who decided that because mr so and so pro rider sponsored by orchid or vans or whoever was doing this awesome stuff with no helmet on, he should try it too. After all, it's cool to DJ helmetless...

We complain that mountain bikers are thought of as irresponsible by the general community. Even the crusty friggen demons don't have big photos and posters of them doing the stuff they do helmetless. But we're happy to promote it as a part of what mtbers do... Go figure? What was that we were complaining about regarding our public image again?

Yes, if you do stuff that's dumb, it's your responsibility. Encouraging others to do something dumb or marketing a cool image of doing stuff that's dumb is also your responsibility. I for one would prefer that we didn't do it.
 

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
Well, if you trawl through these forums you'll find a hell of a lot of posts advocating and in some case glorifying all manner of subjects including:

Alcohol abuse,
Drug taking,
Smoking,
Promiscuous sex,
Firearm use,
Riding with no lights,
Forgery,
Offensive language,
Grievous bodily harm,
Regime change,
Body modification,
Heathen devil worship,
Blood sports,
Dangerous Sports,
Soccer rivalrys (which we all know leads to riots and general anarchy :cool:)
Breach of the peace,
Talk of riding bikes whilst under the influence,
Sick, tasteless humour,
Music Piracy,
Piracy on the High Seas,
Drinking Pina Coladas via the nostrils.

And those are just from my own posts...

As for the rest of you, I don't think there's enough space here to list the various physical, social and mental abuses that are regularly championed on these pages. Oh, no, Riding Without Helmets is just the tip of the Iceberg.

You really are a sick, depraved, irresponsible bunch.

Won't somebody think of the children and close this menacing website down!!?!

;)
 

|Matt|

Banned
Well, if you trawl through these forums you'll find a hell of a lot of posts advocating and in some case glorifying all manner of subjects including:

Alcohol abuse,
Drug taking,
Smoking,
Promiscuous sex,
Firearm use,
Riding with no lights,
Forgery,
Offensive language,
Grievous bodily harm,
Regime change,
Body modification,
Heathen devil worship,
Blood sports,
Dangerous Sports,
Soccer rivalrys (which we all know leads to riots and general anarchy :cool:)
Breach of the peace,
Talk of riding bikes whilst under the influence,
Sick, tasteless humour,
Music Piracy,
Piracy on the High Seas,
Drinking Pina Coladas via the nostrils.

And those are just from my own posts...

As for the rest of you, I don't think there's enough space here to list the various physical, social and mental abuses that are regularly championed on these pages. Oh, no, Riding Without Helmets is just the tip of the Iceberg.

You really are a sick, depraved, irresponsible bunch.

Won't somebody think of the children and close this menacing website down!!?!

;)
Off topic, but what is your profile picture of? Its been bugging me for ages.

And agreed, people see far worse things on this site, not to mention the outside world with all the stuff we're exposed to daily.

I know this has become like a sound byte for me, but 'harden the fuck up'.
 

wombat

Lives in a hole
It's simply not good enough to have an attitude of "Oh, well if they're that stupid then they deserve to get hurt." That's crap. You don't see anyone ragging on Tom Patton or Johnny Wadell or Renee Junga and saying that they deserved to get hurt because they were doing a sport which was potentially hazardous. Do you consider every dirt jumper or downhiller deserving of being seriously injured?
....
Yes, if you do stuff that's dumb, it's your responsibility. Encouraging others to do something dumb or marketing a cool image of doing stuff that's dumb is also your responsibility. I for one would prefer that we didn't do it.
I think that your post serves to itself highlight the central flaw in this argument, please allow me too elaborate.

People get hurt riding all the time: IT IS A DANGEROUS SPORT.
Yet we continue to worship the elite riders we see in vids and at the races. Why? Because they can do stuff that is more advanced and more dangerous than the rest of us. Hell, at races, the express intent is to ride as fast, and as close to the edge of catastrophe as possible! We reward the people that get the closest with accolades and trophies!
Maybe it's just me, but the mtb community hardly seems like one that shies away from danger!

So far, I've picked up two arguments for the banning of pics called for by this thread:
1) it would remove depiction of illegal activity.
2) it'll set a better example for the community, by not encouraging dangerous activity.

I believe that we've all had a good run with number 1, and covered both its innacuracy, and the horrendous double standards it would raise.

So again, I'll go to point 2.
Everyone seems to argue for the banning by bringing with phrases like "good example" and "responsible", and other subjective phrases. Sure, these reasons sound good in theory, but they all require making value judgements as to what is a "good" example, and what is "responsible".

The people who argue for the ban seem to have made this judgement and decided that the line should be drawn at helmet-less riding, which I understand, but what makes their idea of a "good" example any more valid than the rabid conservatives?
With my first paragraph in mind, mtbing hardly seems to be the sport you take up if you want to do everything possible to protect your personal safety. There's plenty of people who would rather that we didn't depict any dangerous activities at all, as it encourages people to put themselves in unnecessary risk that can lead to an increased load on the health system.
They have a valid point too, yet I'd imagine that most members here would cry foul if we decided that their view was a good one to adopt.

What people are calling for here is censorship of other people exercising their right to choose how they partake in their pass-time, with no reason other than they think it sets a "good" example, and is more "responsible".

In general, I despise censorship and regulation of actions that don't affect others and as far as I can see this situation is no different.



If you really want to make farkin more socially responsible, campaign for the banning of POSM. :p
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
Frankly Wombat, I don't give a rats if there's photos of non helmeted riders on Farkin but I think it's a massive double standard to have folks bitching that mtb'ers are considered irresponsible or not taken seriously by authorities or being locked out of areas due to liability concerns while we're still happy to promote our sport with shots of riders taking unnecessary risks that don't actually add to their enjoyment. We make our bed, we get to lie in it. A kid decided that he'd say: "Hey, do you think this is right? I'm not sure I do."

It saddens me when someone says "hey, I think this is a worrying issue" and the best that many of the most experienced members and admins can do is flame and put the boot in.

Moving on...

I'm not in any way suggesting that we should be all for censorship or that the arguments against what RR suggested are invalid, merely that
I can understand where he was coming from and I think it is an issue.

BTW, Wombat, from preference when wiring up 12ax7's, do you and your dad run 6.3 to both the heater pins (4 and 5) and use the centre tap (9) to ground in order to reduce common mode noise, or do you just run 12.6v straight between 4 and 5?
 

tu plang

knob
It saddens me when someone says "hey, I think this is a worrying issue" and the best that many of the most experienced members and admins can do is flame and put the boot in.
Ah I would reread the first two pages. For the most part it was an attempt at discussing the topic but when one side doesnt want to listen and contorts everything in their favour it turns things into a joke - ie. pages 3 onwards.
 

Rik

logged out
From a laziness point of view, the amount of hassle and headaches (lolz) the admin crew would experience just from having to delete helmetless photos is enough to say "bad idea".
When people are paying serious money to use the site and expect everything to be prim and proper - all t's dotted and eyes crossed - then we can start worrying about pictures of people without helmets.
Until then, we're representing the whole community and if some riders don't want to wear helmets then why is it everyone elses problem?
My biggest concern though, is if helmetless riders goes, then what? Ban pics of bikes without a front brake, pics of a rider doing a big jump. Pics of a rider going fast. Pics of a rider. Where does it start and where does it stop? I'm not bending over backwards for a few overly conservative "hand wringers" (I read tabloid press too much) because it's such a subjective issue. If one persons subjective gripe is enough to force a major change, why shouldn't everyone have their whinge heard and attended to? Stuff that. And yes this post is from a "me, me, me" POV, but in the end it's a site based on community contribution and if the majority doesn't see an issue then why should we have to suffer for it.
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
Yeah, I know, thin nend of the wedge, where would we stop, where do you draw the line etc etc etc. I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's all "conservative hand wringing" and just write it off.

I haven't actually said that I think a ban on these photos would work, is realistic to try and implement or would be appropriate, I've merely said that I wish we didn't publicise this aspect of our sport and that we are, by doing so, effectively marketing it as "cool", which will result in some kids who might ordinarily strap on a lid deciding to go without and getting hurt.

I don't think the MTB press can absolve themselves of all blame for the consequences of the things they promote and portray.

Mountainbiking, especially in the freeride, downhill, street and dirtjumping sectors, but also in XC has an image problem amongst many folks out there with more conservative views. Every time there's an article in a mag about Cedric Gracia laughing at the size of some other top level DH'ers knob when they were getting a blow job after a World Cup Race, or talking about the Bicycle Rockers on a road trip throwing food around at a restaurant, or talking about Sam Hill getting smashed on rum and coke that he pre mixed in a 2 litre bottle, or Bender, well, umm... just being Bender really, then it reflects on everyone else in the sport. We do look irresponsible, we do look like we're taking stupid risks unneccesarily, we do look like something that some parents would want to keep their kids away from rather than encourage them towards.

Hell, I'm in the middle of the last phase of advocacy work to get a dirt jump park approved in Canberra. All it's going to take is one bloke in an office somewhere to stick "Australian Mountain Biking" and "Dirt Jumping" into a google images search and he's going to get dumped straight into phat snaps. Then what? "Oh, yeah, because we really want to approve that sort of liability nightmare?"
(and before you all write off everything I've written in this thead up till now as vested interests in not wanting to get the dirt jumps project kyboshed, that was something that only occurred to me about 2 minutes ago)

Like I said before, we make our bed, we lie in it. MTBA tries to promote mountain biking, Farkin promotes mountain biking, the paper mags promote mountain biking. People do get the messages we put out about our sport. What messages do we as a riding community want to be putting out? Maybe it's not Farkin's job, in fact, I'd probably agree. That said, I'm not kidding myself that some stuff here isn't the best PR for our sport.
 

S.

ex offender
Seems kinda strange that a self-professed lefty is so happy to encourage censorship and yeah in general a removal of personal freedoms... when it suits you.

Anyway: why should we be apologetic or ashamed about the way we live, ride, whatever? This site isn't here as a giant advertising magnet for 10 year old kids, it's for riders to be able to talk about the sport/lifestyle they live and love. As Wombat already pointed out, this inevitably involves doing some pretty stupid and/or dangerous shit for the sake of your own amusement, then bragging about it to your e-mates.

What I really don't understand is why you seem to act like it's "them" we need to worry about, "them" being the ones who aren't "us" and thus aren't able to make anything like informed decisions for themselves. If parents think their kid is going out and doing something dangerous and wants to intervene (or make it less dangerous), then good on them, that's a responsible parent, and as far as I'm aware, what parents are generally considered to be there for. If they make the decision that their kid shouldn't be allowed to go dirtjumping because it looks too dangerous, then good on them at least as far as taking care of and responsibility for their child goes. Sucks to be the kid, but that's their own issue to sort out.

You know why it's not the 45yr olds dirtjumping helmetless? Because once you're over whatever my age is at the time plus about 3 years, you're over the hill, and more importantly, as you get older you get the experience FROM the fuckups that allows you to avoid said fuckups again. An analogy would be comparing life in general to riding: When you first start out, you don't know shit, and you make a lot of mistakes, which lead to painful crashes. Over time, you recognise what caused the crash, and so you make less and less mistakes, which in general keeps you safer.

Legal liability sucks, flat out, and yeah it'd be good if we didn't have that to deal with... but like I said in that other thread, there is a sliding scale of danger, it's not like any one thing is the difference between "safe" and "unsafe".
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
Read it again S. I'm not saying we should censor, I'm saying I can see where the kid was coming from. Show me where I've said that we shold ban all photos of helmetless riders? I'm not personally sure it's a positive image and I think it does have some negative effect on how our sport is perceived by others. End of argument.

I'm not encouraging censorship (except possibly self censorship if people give a rats about how others view mtb) and I'm not promoting a removal of personal freedoms. I think the balance at present is pretty much right law wise. And as far as I'm aware, unless you're riding on the road, it's not actually compulsory to wear a helmet at all (offical MTBA events and the like aside). Good sense, sure, but not the law.
 
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TonyG

Likes Dirt
If i get hurt reenacting that first picture im not going to be happy with you Tony.

Helmet or no helmet, that guy obviously had bad karma.
He probably threw a black cat under ladder. Piss funny. I wonder if laughing at the guy is bringing us bad luck.
 

tu plang

knob
He probably threw a black cat under ladder. Piss funny. I wonder if laughing at the guy is bringing us bad luck.
I hope not, if it is my death must be iminent. Nailed by your own front wheel, who could hold a straight face?
 

slip

Beefcake...BEEFCAKE!!!
Any pictures showing the rider not wearing a helmet should be deleted and the poster of that picture given a warning for displaying illegal activites.


I'd especially like feedback from those people who think that non-helmet pictures should be displayed.

RR
Ha! That 2nd pic above is a great example of how I feel about most helmets, those silly little top half ones that only help if you land on the top of your head. Poor Mr. No Face was wearing his helmet.....

Seriously?

1. You big girl.
2. Let's all bow down to the almighty lawmakers and submit unquestionably to their will.
3. Any idea how much work that would be?

You sound like a crazed Today Tonight watching conformist lover and fearer of authority figures.

Not saying you are, just what it sounds like.

I'm assuming you've written letters to every riding website, production company, magazine etc who has published helmetless pics/footage - these are reaching a much larger audience, and specifically to 'promote' and 'represent' riding - compared to some guys putting up some photos on a message board.

If you haven't, then your argument really has no weight behind it. This site is nothing compared to the exposure (especially to the 'public') gained by the avenues mentioned above.
 
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PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
holy shit! is that still there? That was my avatar from two years ago!

Ah well, anyway that there is The Krankies. living gods of early 80's British kids TV. And that's no kid. that's his missus...
 
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