The election thread - Two middle-late aged white men trying to be blokey and convincing..., same old shit, FFS.

Who will you vote for?

  • Liberals

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labor

    Votes: 21 31.8%
  • Nationals

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • Greens

    Votes: 21 31.8%
  • Independant

    Votes: 15 22.7%
  • The Clive Palmer shit show

    Votes: 4 6.1%
  • Shooters and Fishers Party

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • One Nation

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Donkey/Invalid vote

    Votes: 3 4.5%

  • Total voters
    66

Arete

Likes Dirt
which only contributes further to the unwillingness of people to do anything about it.
Forgive me for brutual oversimplification - I'm certainly not an economist but given a) fossil fuels are currently the cheapest way to make automotive things go and produce power b) selling them to other people is a major industry in Australia and c)Reducing CO2 emissions will involve selling and using less of them, there isn't a free way to tackle the issue of climate change that won't cost the mining industry and the consumer. Reduced consumption = reduced profit.

On a personal note, as an young academic, I don't see personal wealth as an important factor in my life, so I'm not 100% sympathetic to those who it is - and probably why I'm politically left leaning. I understand the financial connectivity between the ARC and taxation - but as 14 of the last 15 budgets have seen a reduction in ARC funding I really don't see how the resources industry - or the continued profit thereof impacts in any direct or resoundingly meaningful way on my employment opportunities. Public and government prioritisation of scientific research in Australia is seemingly lower than it is in most other developed and even developing countries. I've actually taken Penny Wong's advice to "seek opportunities abroad" and taken a job elsewhere using funding from the NSF.

I fully understand that with polarised national and global opinion on the issue that achieving effective mitigation of emissions is incredibly difficult. Its made all the more difficult in that the costs are not strictly speaking financially calculable and in large, will be realised socially and environmentally - which makes it nearly impossible to make up the economists of the world a balance sheet where inaction = $x(losses due to climate change), ineffective action =$x+n(cost of action) and effective action = $z(cost of action) and therefore prove that x>z or vice versa and make a purely financial decision. It's not a purely balance sheet issue.

Given the projected, permanent costs to the planet at large, in terms of environmental costs and the humanitarian costs involved in reduced resource production in a world economy where there is insufficient food to feed the current and growing population, I can't see there being a morally or economically justifiable argument for complete inaction - but I don't believe anyone who suggests they can reduce carbon emissions with no impact on industry and the consumer - it doesn't make logical sense.
 

Bodin

GMBC
On a personal note, as an young academic, I don't see personal wealth as an important factor in my life, so I'm not 100% sympathetic to those who it is - and probably why I'm politically left leaning.
If I wasn't married... and you weren't a dude (I'm assuming you're a dude)...
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
While a range of other taxes were reduced as a result of it, brining in the GST was hardly popular with the electorate (or small business). For both groups it increased their day to day costs and it still does.

So, lots of people didn't like it? Stiff bickies, it's there and we pay and just accept it.

Prices for stuff go up every single day and people suck it up (private health insurance premiums anyone?).

If carbon costs more, then the end cost will get passed on to the consumer and others in the chain will get a rebate the same as they do with the GST. Unlike the GST, while you'd pay more in the short term, if the dollars raised from the tarrif went towards funding incresed power development in renewables or green (solar, wind, e85 fuel etc) then sooner or later costs would actually come down as those resources came on line. 10% ethanol petrol already costs us less at the bowser, and many people choose to use it. in this case, the greener choice is cheaper.

At present, coal fired power is cheaper, but if solar were avaiable at the same price, how many folks would choose to pay a price premium just to have the globally warm fuzzy feeling of propping up the coal miners?

The main people with a vested interest in the status quo (and in expensive solutions like carbon sequestration) are those in the fossil fuel industry who want consumption to remain at current levels.

It would seem that our planet has a differing view to how workable that is and the sooner we take intelligent steps towards reducing our fossil fuel consumption, the better.

I couldn't give a rats if the arse falls out of the share price of BP if it means that my daughters kids will have a planet to live on. How can they say "have more kids, we need more people paying tax in 20 years time to cover the costs of pensions" and yet they have no regard for the conditions those same people will be living in because it's "somone elses's problem later on"? The people paying those taxes in the future and the people living with the consequences of our actions now are the same people.
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
...............I couldn't give a rats if the arse falls out of the share price of BP if it means that my daughters kids will have a planet to live on. ................
Would you understand if someone that works for BP did give a rat's arse?
 
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scblack

Leucocholic
I agree. A tax on carbon only would only see popular support when everyone is in agreeance that a cost needs to be born. Tax credits would be a more popular way to promote development of green technology in the current circumstances.
From my perspective, people would be happy NOW to have a tax on carbon, IF it actually REDUCED the carbon being emitted. Currently there would be NIL or neglible reduction in carbon.

Hence, why pay shitloads in a tax, when it effectively does nothing?
 

scblack

Leucocholic
10% ethanol petrol already costs us less at the bowser, and many people choose to use it. in this case, the greener choice is cheaper.
E85 or other ethanol additive fuels are actually NOT cheaper. :)

They cost less at the bowser, correct. BUT they are less efficient then normal fuel. It costs say 5c less per litre. 5/125 = 4% cheaper. But the fuel is 6-7% or so less efficient, so you use more fuel for the same driving.

It is not cheaper.
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
I woud have thought that anyone working for BP would be considering their position given the way the recent disaster was (mis)handled.
I wonder if the number that quit in disgust would compare to how many Federal and State Public Servants quit over the abysmal handling of the various stimulus packages? Or ASIO analysts/Dept of Defence Bureaucrats for the intelligence/justification to invade Iraq? Andrew Wilkie appears to be one of the few. How many Police quit over the Chris Hurley death in custody fiasco?

I seriously doubt that most BP workers would be thinking beyond their own families immediate needs? Would you as a career US oil industry worker, given it was most likely all you knew and in the current state of the US economy and nearly 10% unemployment? Would you as an Australian BP employee quit over mistakes made in the US by a BP Corporate clean up team and due to mistakes made by BP's US Engineers and the Transocean contractors drilling the Macondo well? Does any employee take that level of culpability for decisions made at the Corporate/Bureaucrat level?

E85 or other ethanol additive fuels are actually NOT cheaper. :)
Take the efficiency argument out, it's still only cheaper per litre due to reduced fuel excise. Ethanol is essentially Government subsidised, but personally I do use Plus-95.
 
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Arete

Likes Dirt
Does any employee take that level of culpability for decisions made at the Corporate/Bureaucrat level?
I have turned down consultancy with mines, in part due to my personal views on ethics. Mind you the other reason was - if I'm going to be ethically compromised and work for a mine, I want the renumeration to reflect that compromise (and the fact that you're asking me because you need my specialised skill set/me to take some of my allocated unpaid leave to work for you). Not quite the same, I understand.

The Abbott administration is prepared to cut what was it 12 000 government sector jobs because it wasn't in the national interest to contiune employing them. When applied to fossil fuel dependent jobs, why can't the same ethos stand?
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
Yes..........
While I applaud your actions (regardless of beliefs having the courage of your convictions is commendable) I do think you're one of a very very small minority. Having worked in major industry I watch people every day that won't even take that sort of responsibility for their own actions, let alone for the corporate overlord's actions. Most people just complain, a few complain loudly, very few act. We had one guy caught red-handed leaning up against explosives smoking a cigarette, he was licensed so he knew the Act and the laws about smoking around explosives, he still sued for wrongful dismissal.

........The Abbott administration is prepared to cut what was it 12 000 government sector jobs because it wasn't in the national interest to contiune employing them. When applied to fossil fuel dependent jobs, why can't the same ethos stand?
It can, but there is a difference to Government legislating a change and employee's taking personal responsibility and instigating change. Abbott is talking about not filling 12k vacancies, not handing our redundancies or mass sackings. These people will probabaly only leave when the Private sector is capable of hiring them, there is a job there for people that stay. I'm not advocating for the status quo, merely pointing out that having worked in large organisations that bottom level employees are extremely unlikely to just up and leave for this sort of ethical reason. For them to quit it needs to have personal meaning, better offer, more time at home, personal issues with someone. Most people don't take work that personally.
 
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FR Drew

Not a custom title.
Would you understand if someone that works for BP did give a rat's arse?
Sure, I'd understand, but they can blow it out their arse if they want to kill my grandkids so they can stay in a job.

People were happy to vote for Abbott even though he said he'd shed 12,000 jobs from the public service. I work in an area of the public service. How is it somehow different if I lose my job versus someone in the mining or petroleum industry?

My being employed won't kill anyone down the track.
 

Arete

Likes Dirt
It can, but there is a difference to Government legislating a change and employee's taking personal responsibility and instigating change. Abbott is talking about not filling 12k vacancies, not handing our redundancies or mass sackings. These people will probabaly only leave when the Private sector is capable of hiring them, there is a job there for people that stay. I'm not advocating for the status quo, merely pointing out that having worked in large organisations that bottom level employees are extremely unlikely to just up and leave for this sort of ethical reason. For them to quit it needs to have personal meaning, better offer, more time at home, personal issues with someone. Most people don't take work that personally.
Granted - I was more referring to the employment considerations of reducing fossil fuel consumption and export. Yes it will cost jobs - but there doesn't seem to be a problem in reducing employment in other sectors when it is in the national interest to do so.
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
Sure, I'd understand, but they can blow it out their arse if they want to kill my grandkids so they can stay in a job................... How is it somehow different if I lose my job versus someone in the mining or petroleum industry?

My being employed won't kill anyone down the track.
As long as you understand that people are just as passionate about public sector waste. You aren't losing your job, provided you don't quit you'll continue to drain the public purse as long as you desire, that is the difference.

As for people not being killed by you, that would be correct. But Garrett and the Public sector Bureaucrats in charge of the Insulation Scheme are just as culpable for the four deaths that occured as Tony Hayward and a few other BP and Transocean corporates are for the death of 11 Deepwater Horizon workers drilling a BP well. Heads roll at the top with associated golden handshakes that occur in both public and private, yet 12k public servants and probably just as many BP workers will potentially have to face different employment in the coming year. The difference is you won't be shown the door, they probably will if BP continue to flounder, so I'm sure you could understand if a few of those workers thought you could also blow it out your arse.
 
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smeck

Likes Dirt
Granted - I was more referring to the employment considerations of reducing fossil fuel consumption and export. Yes it will cost jobs - but there doesn't seem to be a problem in reducing employment in other sectors when it is in the national interest to do so.
There isn't a difference, only the 'Political will' to do so. When popular opinion demands action the politicians will deliver it. The only way to expediate that would be to find a Politician prepared to spend political capital and demonstrate some leadership on the issue, frankly I wouldn't be holding my breath.
 

3viltoast3r

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Fielding you bastard!!!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/08/27/2994988.htm?section=justin

Family First Senator Steve Fielding says he is considering blocking legislation in the Upper House if Labor forms government.

Senator Fielding lost his Victorian Senate seat at Saturday's election but will remain in the Upper House until July next year, when the Greens will assume the balance of power.

Senator Fielding lost his seat to the Greens' Richard Di Natale after Family First received just 2.69 per cent of the Victorian Senate vote in Saturday's election. The Greens received 14.28 per cent of the vote.

Now the outspoken Family First senator says he believes voters are "not happy" with Labor and says he could decide to block a Labor government's bills in the Senate.

The three incumbent independents who will decide who forms the next government - Rob Oakeshott, Tony Windsor and Bob Katter - are negotiating with Prime Minister Julia Gillard and Coalition Leader Tony Abbott.

Senator Fielding told the ABC's AM program that the trio and Governor-General Quentin Bryce must take his position into account when determining which party should form government.

"Over the last couple of days I've had people come to me [and ask] 'Steve, what are you going to do with your vote over the next year?" he said.

"[People say], 'you could determine whether there's a stable government or not'.
Supply bill blockage, anyone?
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
....Supply bill blockage, anyone?
I doubt it, just a conservative Family First Senator (??that got in on Labor preferences??) that has lost his seat to the Greens letting Bob Brown know his new Senators could face a Double Dissolution vote before they even take up Office. All bluff and bluster, a pissing contest if you will. I think Fielding just enjoyed having to make Brown appeal to Abbott to reel him in, a demonstration that Brown might hold the power next year, but not yet and perhaps not at all.
 

scblack

Leucocholic
Someone needs to tell Fielding that he's no longer one of the primary holders of the governments balls and that he should drift quietly into obscurity.
He still holds his Senate seat until 30 June next year. From July 1 he is gone. For that period of time he still has his voting rights.

The Coalition (Abbott) have told him to shove his ideas up his arse.
 
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