The election thread - Two middle-late aged white men trying to be blokey and convincing..., same old shit, FFS.

Who will you vote for?

  • Liberals

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labor

    Votes: 21 31.8%
  • Nationals

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • Greens

    Votes: 21 31.8%
  • Independant

    Votes: 15 22.7%
  • The Clive Palmer shit show

    Votes: 4 6.1%
  • Shooters and Fishers Party

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • One Nation

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Donkey/Invalid vote

    Votes: 3 4.5%

  • Total voters
    66

Hobzai

Likes Bikes
Sure, I'd understand, but they can blow it out their arse if they want to kill my grandkids so they can stay in a job.
As an employee of the Big Bad Oil Business, I'll consider myself notified of your stance.
I've worked for BP, Shell, Chevron, Woodside, ENI, Inpex and even PPTEP, the discount shop clown show who brought you the Montara blowout.

No, I won't resign based on stupid decisions that other people make that cause bad things to happen.
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
Coal industry - oh well. even the Liberals know that there will never be another coal fired power station constructed here,
you are missing the semantics of "no new dirty coal fired power stations"

Which leaves the door wide open to extending "old" coal fired power station and constructing new "clean" coal fired power stations.... Both of which are on the cards and will no doubt cause a lot of strife...
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
As an employee of the Big Bad Oil Business, I'll consider myself notified of your stance.
I've worked for BP, Shell, Chevron, Woodside, ENI, Inpex and even PPTEP, the discount shop clown show who brought you the Montara blowout.

No, I won't resign based on stupid decisions that other people make that cause bad things to happen.
I'm not asking you to resign, however I am of the belief that "business as usual" and choofing as much carbon as we can sell into the atmosphere appears to be heading us for a most unpleasant future. If taking action to reduce fossil fuel consumption results in a few lost jobs in the coal/petroleum industry and that's the price we pay for long term survival on this planet, as far as I'm concerned, that's a price worth paying.

As for seventyseven claiming to be an economist but coming out with "my solution is to reduce the costs of being green rather than increase the costs of not doing so", I'd love to see how he proposes to do this? Increased taxes? Running a deficit due to gov't subsidy? Selling a cow and buying some magic beans?
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
They do provide benefit - it's just not immediately quantifiable to a dollar value, so apparently worthless in your eyes.
Quite a lot do, I think I said that. If you actually read my 'waffle' you would've noticed. While I didn't give examples, Health, Education, Nat Parks, Emergency Services all do a great job and in an area that needs public money. My brother-in-law looks after his school's computer network as part of his teaching job, the money he could save if the Qld Education Dept weren't fixated policing crap like using a big approved vendor that charges a rural call-out fee and tries to ignore his small rural school. He should be able to use a small local supplier that is two minutes down the road, thus is half the price and invested in the local community, but it requires too many vendors for Brisbane to adminster so they can't. The Dept workers in Brisbane are no doubt flat out, under resourced and over worked, but Schools get better value themselves than the Dept could ever get for them. Teachers are pretty clever and local communities take pride in their schools, let them work. He can get cheaper work with a lower administration cost, the Dept saves twice.

.........Yes it's annoying, but you'll have assurance that the end product will be acceptable - to you as an investment in your health and well being, and financially, and to any prospective purchaser down the track. Just because YOU don't see it as tangible, doesn't mean it isn't so. The irony is that years ago, all the councils did this all in-house, for minimal fee, but now it's (public service) been split up and made more "accountable" they are trying to recover costs for their "products" thanks to the economic/privatisation rationalists out there. So you, the user, pays.........
An investment in my health and wellbeing, what a load of crap. While it is the intention, the reality is not so warm and fuzzy. This 'big government' attitude is derogatory and the reality differs somewhat. I'm somewhat invested in my health and wellbeing, more so than anyone else. I like user-pays, but there is a difference between charging a fee and providing a service. As for assurances of the quality of the end product, bullshit. The paperwork that Qld Transport processed when I built my car trailer was nothing more that a few calculations to ascertain the axle position, it had nothing to do with construction method, design or quality. The person doing the paperwork didn't understand the details of the axle position anyway, just the ability to see that if the calculation in box F is less than the sum of box N and R so it passes.

This individual was neither technically qualified or competent for the role, however the role was public service and therefore merely required a certain QPS level, not someone with an iota of knowledge, experience, or using any reference to materials, welding, basic engineering or Aust Standards. It was an exercise in paperwork, not technical compliance. For the service that was actually provided I would say that the Government gave a hearthy 'screw you' to my health and wellbeing and anyone that could've potentially been injured by a deathtrap that could've been registered that day. The Government is great at policing the private sector, both public and private are shit house at policing themselves.

Having worked in (state govt) public service, at the pointy end, I didn't see or experience waste and inefficiency, I saw a lot of people doing an often thankless job, with an ever increasing workload, while being seeing the budgets and available resources shrink...........
Agreed, but if you're flat out processing systems that no longer have a tangible benefit to society, what is the real contribution to society vs the cost incurred. As for being a thankless job with budget and resource restrictions, welcome to the the real world where that is something faced everywhere everyday. Public servants aren't taking one for the team, they do a job, the question is whether each job is relevant, not the work ethic or motivation of those involved.

I can just not accept that everything must have a quantifiable dollar value to be justifiable. At the end of the day, the economy is a means to an end - not the end in itself.
At the end of the day when the ageing population stops paying income tax the Government's income pool will shrink and retirement costs grow. The economy is everything if the money stops, hence why budgets get cut and resources get stretched.

Get the Public sector back to providing oversight, keep the service delivery to contained to only areas where the public interest is best served. Let Principals run schools, let Health Professionals run hospitals, let the public service watch over, not try to do it for them from 2000km away.
 

Bodin

GMBC
The economy is everything if the money stops, hence why budgets get cut and resources get stretched.
That right there is the self-fulfilling prophecy that scares me about the economic mindset - it pays heed to nothing but itself, and everything else must suffer for it. While our air gets dirtier and our food more tasteless, I have nothing real to thank the economy for. Nothing with a value that will stand the test of time.

You could just as easily argue that "The economy is nothing if the money stops..."
 

Elbo

pesky scooter kids git off ma lawn
That right there is the self-fulfilling prophecy that scares me about the economic mindset - it pays heed to nothing but itself, and everything else must suffer for it. While our air gets dirtier and our food more tasteless, I have nothing real to thank the economy for. Nothing with a value that will stand the test of time.

You could just as easily argue that "The economy is nothing if the money stops..."
After taking an interest in Economics throughout uni and doing a couple of subjects mainly for my own interest in the topic, I came to the conclusion that in general, Economics completely disregards people. It's sad that we base almost all of our decisions on financial costs and benefits. Society, culture and people are much more important. Sure, the economy is one factor in a successful society, but there are many more factors that are completely ignored in decision making.
It would be great if those who lead us stopped working in the abstract.
 

smeck

Likes Dirt
That right there is the self-fulfilling prophecy that scares me about the economic mindset - it pays heed to nothing but itself, and everything else must suffer for it. While our air gets dirtier and our food more tasteless, I have nothing real to thank the economy for. Nothing with a value that will stand the test of time.

You could just as easily argue that "The economy is nothing if the money stops..."
You could, but the fact that the reason economics has developed the way it has is a function of demand. After all there is no such thing as a utopic society, one man's utopia is another's dystopia. Money gives every man the opportunity to pursue his own version of utopia.

You have nothing real to thank the economy for, yet you're in a position where you could leave your job on moral grounds. Your children will be able to progress in education until they're 30 if they desire and to leave the system an expert in something. That just isn't an option if there isn't public money available, my Grandfather had to leave at 14 to train in the same job as his father because his family needed him to work, your's probably did too. I had the ability to choose my career and I have the ability to change it if I desire, he had neither.

There are many scary self fulfilling prophecies, but I find the whole 'Government know's best' Socialist argument somewhat terrifying. A level of socialism is absolutely necessary but needs to tempered with a level of Conservatism. You'll never find the centre without a left and right, you need the doomsayers on each side to find the middle.
 

Bodin

GMBC
Bollocks. Wanting more than you need is human nature. Economics just measures it.

Marketing =/= economics.
Bollocks yourself - have you forgotten where you live? The original inhabitants of this country managed to keep the balance for 40,000+ years (by taking ONLY what they needed), yet we managed to put the whole joint at risk in about 200.

Wanting more than you need is the nature of people who ALREADY have more than they need. They teach this behaviour to others to justify their own and, unfortunately, because they are rich and powerful, they have the resources to suck us all in to believing that it's a good system.
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
@ Bodin:

That's because the tribe was allowed to spear anyone who didn't pull their weight or who took more than was sustainable...

Hmm, it's sounding like a pretty good system...
 

scblack

Leucocholic
Wanting more than you need is the nature of people who ALREADY have more than they need. They teach this behaviour to others to justify their own and, unfortunately, because they are rich and powerful, they have the resources to suck us all in to believing that it's a good system.
You are COMPLETELY mixing up the two groups of people at play here.

As Matt H has correctly argued, Economics is a social science that provides theories about the functioning of our economy.

Marketing departments and their advertising placements attempt to entice people to buy more widgets.

Marketing and Economics are not nearly the same thing.

Just because one of the basic tenets of Economic Theory happens to be Demand (and its relationship with Supply), does not in any way, shape or form CREATE that demand. That is a basic human trait incorporated in the theories.


Or are you arguing that the Supply/Demand curves of economic theory mean more plasma TV's should be bought, or that we all drive BMW's at the Equilibrium market price?
 

Bodin

GMBC
Or are you arguing that the Supply/Demand curves of economic theory mean more plasma TV's should be bought, or that we all drive BMW's at the Equilibrium market price?
I'm arguing that people are obsessed with materialistic crap and are completely missing the point that the almighty dollar ain't the be-all and end-all and shouldn't be the difference between whether we can breathe clean air or not.
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
One evening arouynd the fire in the hunter gatherer tribe one of the men pipes up and says:
"I'm a really good hunter, the best you have, I'll organise the hunting parties and all you have to do is pay me. At current market rates for a good hunt manager, my yearly salary will be about equivalent to all the food that the rest of the folks in the tribe have eaten in the last 10 years. Hey, the market says I'm worth it."
 
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