Downhill training

[brycethebomb]

Hi all,
so, recently I've been wanting to improve my results in racing and thought some training would be good. I've researched but a lot of it seems complicated, could anyone help with some basic strength/fitness/cardio/bike related training? as im just not sure where to start, and don't feel like wasting time doing exercises that aren't going to do anything but don't want anything too strenuous.
Thanks!

 

[T-Rex]

Hi all,
so, recently I've been wanting to improve my results in racing and thought some training would be good. I've researched but a lot of it seems complicated, could anyone help with some basic strength/fitness/cardio/bike related training? as im just not sure where to start, and don't feel like wasting time doing exercises that aren't going to do anything but don't want anything too strenuous.
Thanks!

It might help if you tell us what results you are getting now, and what division you are racing in.

Let's say (wild guess) you are a junior and are mid field. From a training point of view, three things you would need to focus on to progress to the podium:

1. Skills
2. Fitness
3. Strength


Here's one example of each which might help you:

Skills - are you hitting all the A lines that the guys on the podium are hitting? If not, why not? Example: the most common skill gap IMO from mid field down in most grades is jumping, can you jump everything the fast guys can? If not, work on your jumping, not just outright size of jumps, but the kind of akward stuff you typically see on DH race tracks, such as short run ins, turns right after landers, shitty shaped kickers, etc.

Fitness - even though it's DH, the guys on the podium can usually pedal pretty hard over the course of a race. If you find yourself sitting down at all, or having to back off your pedalling and cruise, this needs work. Lots of time on a XC bike will help, as well as 30 second sprint series eg 30 seconds flat out up a gentle incline, turn around and roll back to where you started, 30 second sprint, etc etc.

Strength - Core strength is key, if you don't have a strong core you can't transfer all your power to your pedals. This one worked really well for T-Rex Junior a couple of years ago when we figured it out (acutally got told by a coach), he knocked a heap of time off in a couple of months by working on his core strenght. THere are heaps of exercises you can find by googling.

 

[brycethebomb]

Thanks heaps for that t-rex, and you were bang on with where I am at right now, good guess! im racing in under 17s and usually jusst missing on quali by less than 3 seconds, so about mid-way.
Thanks!

 

[dontfeelcold]

For strength training do recreational gymnastics. Teaches power and technique if you can find the right place.

I would also advise going to a sports physiotherapist of some sorts explain what you do and they should be able to tell you where you are weak and what to do about it. There is no point starting any form of training if you aren't up to the basics.

 

[Deanmc]

I agree with T-Rex on fitness with sprints. I work out in WA in the mines and i unfortunatly cant ride while im out here for obvious reasons. But luckily they have a exercise bike at camp. I do my training on that, Like what T-rex said 30sec sprint 30sec cooldown and repeat. I usually go as fast and as hard as i can for about 15mins. My legs are like jelly after it. But hard work pays off. Its done wonders for my fitness and riding!

The proper name for it is HIIT (High intensity interval training) Have a search on google or youtube there is heaps of info on them

 

[driftking]

It's complicated because there are so many factors that need to be trainner for downhill but T-Rex hit on the main few points.

In terms of how to train focus on building a strong base and build up.
Also when you go riding on weekend or to get better have a focus, while just riding can improve it doesn't do a lot of your not trying to learn, otherwise you are just doing the same thing all the time.
By that I mean focus on the skill you want To improve eg, off the brakes or focus on hitting a-lines perfect and focus on your body position or how you pedal etc.

I found a big thing for me in terms of skill was learning to go slow to go fast.
By that I had to take a step back and hit sections slower off the brakes and slowly build up my speed without brakes.

A lot of riders will pedal hard then brake a lot before a section scrubbing off lots of speed, if you blindly go out and ride as hard as you can Everytime, you are always going to brake the same and won't really go much faster, instead hit the section as fast as you can without brakes, then slowly up your pace.
Eventually you will reach the point where you are either not braking or braking as little as possible. Not only will this mean less braking time but doing this I You will be going faster than you originally were and carrying more speed.

This might mean you roll into a section at first and it will feel slow but in no time you will be pedaling hard into it without brakes. It took me one afternoon on a section of trail. It was a steep drop away corner that I found I was pedaling a good 15meters than braking before going in. I instead stopped at the top and rolled down without brakes from there I then rolled form further back and then added some pedaling. Eventually I was back sprinting my 15meters but this time I was just hitting the corner without brakes.

 

[nastylilweed]

This is exactly what I have been doing as well.

You would be surprised how quickly you pick up. I was focusing on a line of 5 jumps on about 100m of trail. Although the jumps weren't technical I found I was always having to pedal heaps to clear them. Basically I just focused on pumping the corners and ramps really hard and making sure my timing was right, it was surprising how quickly i was railing every corner and jump on the line again.

Ps. This is after coming back from a serious knee injury and 8 weeks off the bike, different to learning the first time but very similar technique i guess?

 

[driftking]

I think the key to skill as highlighted by the above jump example and my own braking experience is when you are going out to get better/train the key is to have a focus and pay attention don't just ride blindly.
You will be surprised how much speed you can gain and improve in even a 1-2hour session when you start paying attention. if you want to ride a certain section scope it out try new lines, focus on off the brakes, pumping break down what you are doing and just focus on that one thing and continue until you have all areas dialed. Then move on to the next section. It will be slow at first but as you improve staying off the brakes and pumping will become more second nature.
I still have a lot to do in all areas of skill as well but these things have worked for me.


Also make sure you have fun on your bike, go out with Mates don't take yourself too seriously all the time, it's awesome to have goals and take riding serious but leave some time to just cool off and have a session when you don't focus on anything but having fun.
I personally got to serious about riding at one stage and lost the fun feeling it became more a effort because I was always trying to go faster or do better and I lost that fun reason I started in the first place.

 

[brycethebomb]

Thanks a lot for that everyone, I hope to get training as soon as possible!

 

[driftking]

Just to touch on a obvious but potentially over looked area, get your suspension set up. It makes a massive difference to how well the bike rides. If you have never set up the bike properly it will take a few sessions to get it set up then tweaked, you ussually need to ride a few trails to get a over all base setting done that you are happy with. From there most people won't change the bike too much unless the track calls for it but with a good base setting its ussually just a few clicks of compression here and there if that.

 

[B.utters]

If you want some specific exercises to do, search Gray Cook in youtube.

The stuff this guy teaches focuses on building core stability and strength which will help massively with bike handling and injury prevention.

Get into these to start with;
-chop and lift,
-cross body single leg 1 arm dead lifts and
-Turkish get ups

I started doing this and it's helped me feel less tired on the bike as well as helping to prevent some serious damage to my ribs from crashing in the last 2 state rounds.

 

[TimCz83]

Some really great tips in here.... I was off the bike for many reasons for a number of years and have only come back over the last 6 months or so - reading a lot of this drills home a number of things I need to be doing. The going slower w/ no brakes and gradually increasing speed is something that has been pointed out to me also - and its first on my list of things to be trying.

Cheers for all the tips guys.

 

[Timbot]

fitness

It might help if you tell us what results you are getting now, and what division you are racing in.

Let's say (wild guess) you are a junior and are mid field. From a training point of view, three things you would need to focus on to progress to the podium:

1. Skills
2. Fitness
3. Strength


Here's one example of each which might help you:

Skills - are you hitting all the A lines that the guys on the podium are hitting? If not, why not? Example: the most common skill gap IMO from mid field down in most grades is jumping, can you jump everything the fast guys can? If not, work on your jumping, not just outright size of jumps, but the kind of akward stuff you typically see on DH race tracks, such as short run ins, turns right after landers, shitty shaped kickers, etc.

Fitness - even though it's DH, the guys on the podium can usually pedal pretty hard over the course of a race. If you find yourself sitting down at all, or having to back off your pedalling and cruise, this needs work. Lots of time on a XC bike will help, as well as 30 second sprint series eg 30 seconds flat out up a gentle incline, turn around and roll back to where you started, 30 second sprint, etc etc.

Strength - Core strength is key, if you don't have a strong core you can't transfer all your power to your pedals. This one worked really well for T-Rex Junior a couple of years ago when we figured it out (acutally got told by a coach), he knocked a heap of time off in a couple of months by working on his core strenght. THere are heaps of exercises you can find by googling.

This is a good breakdown by t rex with good advice but i would also add that it is crutial to obtain core stability before considering core strength as ignoring your core stability could result in endless ongoing injuries.Stability before movement.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

I'd agree with most of what's said here, other than core stability, waste of time.

If gym is your thing, a press, a pull and a squat will cover every muscle group (including the trunk muscles). Also a great way to help injury prevention and to aid faster recovery if you are hurt.

The press - great for pumping/flow on the bike and landing.
The pull - great for lifting the front. 1 Arm row also great for hand strength/endurance.
The squat - great for developing endurance in that position, which you spend most of your time when not seated.

Might have missed it, if someone has already said, ride with faster people.

 

[brycethebomb]

I'd agree with most of what's said here, other than core stability, waste of time.

If gym is your thing, a press, a pull and a squat will cover every muscle group (including the trunk muscles). Also a great way to help injury prevention and to aid faster recovery if you are hurt.

The press - great for pumping/flow on the bike and landing.
The pull - great for lifting the front. 1 Arm row also great for hand strength/endurance.
The squat - great for developing endurance in that position, which you spend most of your time when not seated.

Might have missed it, if someone has already said, ride with faster people.

Im not really a gym guy and don't live close to one but could you elaborate more on these exercises?
thanks!

 

[Mywifesirrational]

Im not really a gym guy and don't live close to one but could you elaborate more on these exercises?
thanks!

A press is a push up motion. Push ups are actually pretty good for downhill as you don't need to be pressing 160+kg, but you do want to have enough endurance and strength to throw the bike around. I'd favour higher repetition numbers to favour the endurance side of things. Riding pump tracks a lot would also stimulate strength here to a lesser degree.

A pull is any motion in which you pull a weight towards you body, like a rowing action. Very good for making the posterior shoulder girdle strong. It also by default makes hand grip endurance and strength (if the load is high enough) imrpove, this is a great thing for riding.

A squat is simply a motion of sitting into and standing from a chair. Great for sprinting and general power, but for DH endurance is also important, so things like wall sits - sitting against a wall but with no chair are really good, painful but very beneficial exercise.

There's heaps of great exercises out there, these of just some of the basic but important ones.

The idea behind gym type exercises is to develop some power in the legs, but mostly so your not get fatigued and slowing down into a race/run. Also in other sports at least, there is a high correlation between acute fatigue and loss of skill (your nervous system loses coordination).

 

[brycethebomb]

A press is a push up motion. Push ups are actually pretty good for downhill as you don't need to be pressing 160+kg, but you do want to have enough endurance and strength to throw the bike around. I'd favour higher repetition numbers to favour the endurance side of things. Riding pump tracks a lot would also stimulate strength here to a lesser degree.

A pull is any motion in which you pull a weight towards you body, like a rowing action. Very good for making the posterior shoulder girdle strong. It also by default makes hand grip endurance and strength (if the load is high enough) imrpove, this is a great thing for riding.

A squat is simply a motion of sitting into and standing from a chair. Great for sprinting and general power, but for DH endurance is also important, so things like wall sits - sitting against a wall but with no chair are really good, painful but very beneficial exercise.

There's heaps of great exercises out there, these of just some of the basic but important ones.

The idea behind gym type exercises is to develop some power in the legs, but mostly so your not get fatigued and slowing down into a race/run. Also in other sports at least, there is a high correlation between acute fatigue and loss of skill (your nervous system loses coordination).

thanks, ill give them a go.

thanks everyone for the help!

 

[driftking]

While I agree with the above to a extent that is not enough and core stability plays a massive factor in riding. Riders including aaron Gwin do exercises while on exercise balls is he will do a one arm press while standing on a exercise ball, this engages the core stability muscles. Stability muscles are constantly used for dh not to mention you need core stability for all lifting in the gym as well.

In terms of the basic gym exercises they are great for base fitness and should be included in any good training schedule but they don't compared to more bike specific exercises. Both need to be included in training.
I would suggest unilatreral exercises like pistol squats.
A one leg squat does a few things; as does all unilateral exercises.
- it corrects and highlights weaknesses in both sides of the body
- because you are using one leg it means your body weight is now putting twice the force on the leg as your not longer using two legs, this means no weights which can be useful at home.
- it works the core stability
-we pedal one leg at a time so it is more specific

Note you should still include two leg squats though.

Now if you can't do unilateral at first start with two leg squats. I would highly suggest you check out bikejames.com

Along with squats there are many other unilateral exercises.
In terms of doing weights you need to make sure you not only do the exercises with correct form but I would suggest free weights as again they add more directional forces and require more stability and support muscles to be engaged.

Also look at split stance exercises, you can measure your crank position to get a more accurate natural position to train in.
In terms of building endurance that will depend on the weight and reps you use not on the exercise specifically.

Nothing personal to you mywifesirrarional you do note some very important exercises but they are very basic exercises and and are only a small set of exercises that should be included with other training. it isn't specific enough and core stability is so important you can't discount it. In terms of push and pull these are not exercises but types of exercises so that is very broad. To say push pull and squats, technically a squat is a push exercise already. So in reality I don't disagree with what you said but to me it seems to lack insight or detail into riding training. I apologise if you take any offense to that.

Also OP if you do hit the gym know your focus, you need to use the right reps and weight for goals, also try keep workouts under 1hour preferably no more than 45min. At this point testosterone declines and you won't really reap the benefits.

 

[B.utters]

I'd agree with most of what's said here, other than core stability, waste of time.

If gym is your thing, a press, a pull and a squat will cover every muscle group (including the trunk muscles). Also a great way to help injury prevention and to aid faster recovery if you are hurt.

The press - great for pumping/flow on the bike and landing.
The pull - great for lifting the front. 1 Arm row also great for hand strength/endurance.
The squat - great for developing endurance in that position, which you spend most of your time when not seated.

Might have missed it, if someone has already said, ride with faster people.

Are you kidding? All of your ability to handle a bike comes from your hips and core.

If you have powerful legs and a weak core then you are going to lose a whole lot of energy pushing your hips backwards instead of the pedal downwards. The same goes for your upper body, you can have all the arm strength in the world but if you have a weak core then you are not going to have great control over being able to direct the bike.

 

[SprocketFury]

I've subscribed to this thread because I was going to ask the same questions. I do have one that was almost touched on, which was recovery. Sorry if I hijack your thread brycethebomb, and these might be ridiculously stupid questions.

To address soreness after excercise/training:
In terms of recovery?
To give an example, any exercise I do is fantastic, but for the 48-36 hours afterward holy crap, I feel it. Sunday I was spectating at King Of Ballarat and I schlepped down those muddy stairs and then back up, only once. Monday and yesterday I could hardly walk, the fronts of my thighs were excruciatingly sore. Today it's hardly noticable. I've realised just now it's probably because I didn't stretch - that's gonna be pretty important right? - but I didn't think of the stairs being so brutal.

I started riding again a month ago in the hopes of entering KOB 2013, and while I don't get as sore as I did Sunday, I was wondering if you guys had recovery management techniques you could recommend to manage post-workout pain and get the most out of it.

Also, aside from good diet (I'm assuming!) and working out, do you guys use supplements, shakes, etc?