Sydney siege

T.3

Likes Dirt
Johnny.

You seem to me to be a little passive aggressive. If I've misread it I apologise.

If someone has lengthy in depth practical experience, then they chose after a considerable time successfully practicing in that field to work behind the scenes advising or critiquing that field it makes them an expert. I don't have a problem with them offering an expert opinion.

I do have a problem with a person who has only studied something and as such has only theoretical experience (and the only risk they face is a paper cut) passing a judgement. This is what I mean by academics in the context of this discussion. In my opinion their opinion isn't worth squat.

A patriotic duty to question the Police? Sure question the management, they are fixated with media management and the appearance of fighting crime rather than the actual act of, apart from that as far as I'm concerned it comes off as a bit paranoid.

Again I got on this thread to offer support to the people who risked their lives after over hearing them being unfairly criticised.

You seem to want to saddle me up as someone who believes the government and police can do what they want how they want. Not the case.
 

slippy

Likes Bikes and Dirt
He (Russell Brand) made a few inaccurate statements, but "100% wrong" seems a bit harsh.

The main thrust of his argument, that governments are taking non-political incidents and labelling them (deceitfully) as politically motivated, then using that deception to justify legislative change rings very true. The proposed bail law changes and retention of personal data would not have stopped this event at all. But this event is being used to justify these changes and the big corporate media entities are complicit in this.

Why? Well, retention of data allows for internet piracy crackdowns (an embarassing accidental admission by police and Malcolm Turnbull recently) and increased tracking of personal profiles allows all sorts of market research. Big media stands to profit if this gets through. Think I'm being overimaginative? Recently orgainisations as wide and varied as the RSPCA, Harness Racing NSW and local councils were exposed for accessing Telstra's personal metadata. And now the government wants to facilitate and legitimise this corporate behaviour? WTF.

Blanket refusal of bail for certain accusations (of which Man Horan Monis was accused of exactly zero) allows detention of people who are innocent, the ways this could be used and abused by government and police is mind boggling. This constitutes a fundamental breach of the "innocent until proven guilty" mantra of a free democracy. Australians can be so apathetic that this may slide through, Americans would be rioting in the street if their freedoms were breached like this.

And to repeat, none of this would have stopped Man Haron Monis, but his actions are being leveraged to create unreasonable fear to facilitate unrelated legislative change. Russell may have been a left of the centre of the nail head, but I think he still hit it.
 
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johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Johnny.

You seem to me to be a little passive aggressive. If I've misread it I apologise.

If someone has lengthy in depth practical experience, then they chose after a considerable time successfully practicing in that field to work behind the scenes advising or critiquing that field it makes them an expert. I don't have a problem with them offering an expert opinion.

I do have a problem with a person who has only studied something and as such has only theoretical experience (and the only risk they face is a paper cut) passing a judgement. This is what I mean by academics in the context of this discussion. In my opinion their opinion isn't worth squat.
I'm not sure this person you're painting actually exists when it comes to tactical resolutions.

A patriotic duty to question the Police? Sure question the management, they are fixated with media management and the appearance of fighting crime rather than the actual act of, apart from that as far as I'm concerned it comes off as a bit paranoid.

Again I got on this thread to offer support to the people who risked their lives after over hearing them being unfairly criticised.

You seem to want to saddle me up as someone who believes the government and police can do what they want how they want. Not the case.
lol, well no, I'm just going off the words you've written here and I've really focused on the tactical response and the need for oversight, review and the right of the public to ensure that the bureaucracy is serving them to the highest possible level. I can't see where I've made out that you are unquestioning of the govt.

All I'm saying is that it's always good to scrutinise the govt and the bureaucracy that we pay for. And just because people risk their lives doesn't mean they aren't open to scrutiny and even criticism if they screw up. They volunteer for that job and they get paid well for it. Why should they not be criticised if they screw up?

The point you are making is that the average person wouldn't have a clue what success or failure even looks like in that area, which is fair.

He (Russell Brand) made a few inaccurate statements, but "100% wrong" seems a bit harsh.
Well, that's not actually what I said though, was it?

I said: Actually, he is 100% wrong in at least one area

The main thrust of his argument, that governments are taking non-political incidents and labelling them (deceitfully) as politically motivated, then using that deception to justify legislative change rings very true. The proposed bail law changes and retention of personal data would not have stopped this event at all. But this event is being used to justify these changes and the big corporate media entities are complicit in this.

Why? Well, retention of data allows for internet piracy crackdowns (an embarassing accidental admission by police and Malcolm Turnbull recently) and increased tracking of personal profiles allows all sorts of market research. Big media stands to profit if this gets through. Think I'm being overimaginitive? Recently orgainisations as wide and varied as the RSPCA, Harness Racing NSW and local councils were exposed for accessing Telstra's personal metadata. And now the government wants to facilitate and legitimise this corporate behaviour? WTF.

Blanket refusal of bail for certain accusations (of which Man Horan Monis was accused of exactly zero) allows detention of people who are innocent, the ways this could be used and abused by government and police is mind boggling. This constitutes a fundamental breach of the "inncoent until proven guilty" mantra of a free democracy. Australians can be so apathetic that this may slide through, Americans would be rioting in the street if their freedoms were breached like this.

And to repeat, none of this would have stopped Man Haron Monis, but his actions are being leveraged to create unreasonable fear to facilitate unrelated legislative change. Russell may have been a left of the centre of the nail head, but I think he still hit it.

Yyyyyeah, and so?

Don't think I argued against one bit of that did I? As a matter of fact, I think I even went in to detail as to why it's occurring?

Did you actually read what I wrote? Not trying to be rude, I'm genuinely asking you because you seem to have completely misunderstood something here.
 

T.3

Likes Dirt
Fair enough Johnny, agree with some of what you say.

How much do they get paid?

I'm not sure what they get paid is on par with what I would expect to get paid for that risk, although I think it's safe to assume they didn't choose that career path based on financial reward.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Not sure but their military equivalent are closer to $100k a year, depending on rank.

They more than likely don't take the job for the pay but because it's the job they want to do it and enjoy doing it.
 
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pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Actually, he is 100% wrong in at least one area.

It doesn't matter how much of a nut the attacker (I tend to think most people who carry out violence for religion are at least a little bit irrational) was, he still carried out an act of violence that had political demands (he wanted Abbott to say that Australia was under attack by IS, among other silly shit) - he used the fear of further attacks (executions of hostages) in order to coerce the govt into an act they otherwise would not take. That's the text book definition of terrorism, the sanity of the person that uses terror is not part of the equation, it's about their actions, not their mindset.

Because terrorism is a tactic the motivation of the person who employs it doesn't matter. You could commit an act of terror because you want to force the govt to allow cats and dogs to vote in elections. Clearly crazy but if you use the tactic of terror to try and force the govt to enact your demands, you're carrying out terrorism. You may be doing it because you are crazy but you're still doing it.

No one is trying to say that this guy was an international terrorist. He was a person that, for whatever reason, was seduced by the propaganda coming from globalist jihadi groups, who self radicalised and acted out violently. IS/AQ/whoever doesn't give a shit how loopy this guy was, they'll more than happily own his actions and look for ways to convince other psychologically unstable to people to act in their name. What a great weapon for IS/AQ to utilise: very difficult to detect, very harmful and very gullible. The means may be unorthodox but the ends are the same whether a trained operative carried them out or a person with mental issues carried them out.

As for the way politicians are acting, yeah, well, that's the way politicians act. I don't think anyone with half a brain is surprised by this, right? Pollies say what they think will resonate with the people, they want their vote. As for the terror policies, yeah, they will harness some of this momentum to get their bills through, as they would for something connected to the budget and any other policy. The reason for wanting greater measures of surveillance and detention, That's something that should be related to the security agencies more so than pollies.

Security agencies always want the strongest powers they can get. Their job is to secure shit and they don't want to be in the position they are now - some one slipped through the net and the sec agencies look like they've failed. So of course they are going to push for as much power as they can get - they also get bigger budgets, better toys, safer work environment, greater say in policy, etc. etc. All arms of the bureaucracy work this way. A leader - notice I say leader, not politician - is supposed to find the best balance between a reduction of liberty, cost to the tax payer and security for the nation. However the rational path for the pollie is to err on the side of caution. It's better to be some one who spent too much money on security and maybe infringed a little on the general liberties of the country and really screwed a few people over than be the guy that was too soft on security and was at the wheel when a serious attack occurred. That's the general play of things and if you give it some thought with an open mind it makes sense. That doesn't mean what I'm saying is perfect and definitely the reality. For all I truly know we may be run by lizard people from hollow earth. However what I'm saying is completely rational and very easily the reality.

I have trouble believing that politicians want ultimate control and virtual enslavement. That sounds more like a means than an ends. I mean what would they get out of locking us down and being able to look in to every facet of our existence? I can't think of a rational reason as to why that would be attractive to them. Better to shape society to bring them wealth and power to they can secure access to resource to make themselves luxuriant and safe. If they have a political or religious ideology that they get to push that too. I can't see any politician in the liberal democratic world who is so ideological/religious that locking us down completely would benefit their cause. Just doesn't fit together.

As for profiteering from wars, well duh. Welcome to the world, Russell. Shit has been happening since day dot and it always surprises me how shocked and outraged people get when they realise this for the first time (although, I wasn't born with this knowledge myself, I remember being shocked and outraged when I was 18 as well). Although saying that the current operations in the Mid East are solely for the sake of profit and capitalism is just ludicrously naive. Russell completely lost all credibility when he went there.
Thx for that post - a good read with lots of good points.

Just because I'm a grumpy old fucker - Russell Brand is a an attention seeking twat with an over inflated opinion of himself - realistically, all he is , is an opinion provider, very little fact, just unsubstantiated opinion.
 

moorey

call me Mia
Thx for that post - a good read with lots of good points.

Just because I'm a grumpy old fucker - Russell Brand is a an attention seeking twat with an over inflated opinion of himself - realistically, all he is , is an opinion provider, very little fact, just unsubstantiated opinion.
Yeah, but he's rich, famous and loud, making his opinion far more valid than ours. By god, when I'm rich and famous, you'll all come round to my way of seeing :rant:
 

T.3

Likes Dirt
Not sure but their military equivalent are closer to $100k a year, depending on rank.

They more than likely don't take the job for the pay but because it's the job they want to do it and enjoy doing it.
I'm not sure if around the 100k mark is well paid. Especially considering what the like of barristers and some people in the finance industry get paid.

I agree obviously doing it for love not money.
 

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
Thx for that post - a good read with lots of good points.

Just because I'm a grumpy old fucker - Russell Brand is a an attention seeking twat with an over inflated opinion of himself - realistically, all he is , is an opinion provider, very little fact, just unsubstantiated opinion.
Russell Brand has swapped his much publicised drink, drug and sex addictions to an addiction for the sound of his own voice. I'll admit he has a wicked turn of phrase and can often be hilarious but he does tend to talk a lot of bollocks.
 

slippy

Likes Bikes and Dirt
POSM, I agree with you completely about Russell's personality, however he was pretty close to the mark this time.

Johnny, yes I read what you wrote and it seems you focused on some minor inaccuracies in Russell's rant and missed his main point, or at least failed to acknowledge it. Just refocusing on the central issues which are way too significant to ignore.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Russel brand uses way too many conclusions in his statements that he attaches to observed facts - this makes it sound more important and is a common way of presenting an opinion. I was waiting for the illuminati to come up as he displayed more and more paranoia towards govt.

I thought I'd go dangerous and read the comments below, that when you kind of get an idea of who the supporters are. In this case, it doesn't read well ( as it's doesn't for tabloid media or Fox News ), it's all too easy to simply insult others without your view as therefore stupid, but underlying this attitude is often an inability to accept the differences between facts and opinion.

If you believe that govt is all about power over the people, then that's a belief - you are welcome to it, but an opinion is not made a fact by associating with others of like mind, no matter how popular
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Johnny, yes I read what you wrote and it seems you focused on some minor inaccuracies in Russell's rant and missed his main point, or at least failed to acknowledge it.
Whether this was an issue of terror or just a crazy guy is a minor inaccuracy??! You serious?




As for the way politicians are acting, yeah, well, that's the way politicians act. etc etc etc.....

Security agencies always want the strongest powers they can get. etc. etc. etc.....

I have trouble believing that politicians want ultimate control etc. etc. .........

As for profiteering from wars, etc. etc..........
Failed to acknowledge, you've got to be kidding me. Not only did I acknowledge them I discussed them in far more detail and in a far more rational manner than Russell did.

Honestly, you either did not pay any attention to what I've written or you're reading it with such deep bias that it's going in one eye and out the other.
 

pink poodle

気が狂っている男
Yeah, but he's rich, famous and loud, making his opinion far more valid than ours. By god, when I'm rich and famous, you'll all come round to my way of seeing :rant:
No matter how rich you get, you also need to be pretty. Not just a little pretty like johnny, but the kind of pretty that melts that panties off 60yr old left women and their emo daughters. When you are pretty like that...mmmmmmmmmm you will have a license to Russell their bushes.
 

Norco Maniac

Is back!
No matter how rich you get, you also need to be pretty. Not just a little pretty like johnny, but the kind of pretty that melts that panties off 60yr old left women and their emo daughters. When you are pretty like that...mmmmmmmmmm you will have a license to Russell their bushes.
well i'm 50 with very attractive daughters, and somehow immune to pretty little ironic-bearded English mummy's boys spouting off about Feminisim and Australian politics.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
You've got to be fucking kidding me.


If this article is on the money then you're taking your cues from a man that represents the religion of raping children.




I hope I've missed your sarcasm.
 

MountGower

Likes Dirt
Please accept my condolences regarding the effect the truth has on you. As for the religion of raping children, I'm sorry, but that is simply garbage, unless you are talking about Islam that is.
 

outtacontrol

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Only read the first one. 100% on the money. This will happen again and it will be because we have become too afraid of being branded racist than saying it's not okay.
 
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