pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Like I said...so many gullible people.
Boost hubs. Here to stay?
- Thread starter flamin'trek
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pink poodle
気が狂っている男
^ only because it is too soon to return to 110x20mm...consumers still remember.
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pink poodle
気が狂っている男
Warp
Likes Dirt
Wasn't that 24mm??
I think Spesh had a 25mm hub at some point and there may have been a Hanebrink with 30mm axle (or was it 32mm)?
Edit... After some googling, the 30mm axle fork I had in mind were Foes, not Hanebrink. Hanebrinks were 25mm.
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EsPeGe
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Thank god, a voice of reason. I too get frustrated at the constant bitching about changing standards etc maybe I'm looking at the world through rose coloured glasses but surely without constant trial and error things don't progress. Take a look at the bikes we are riding these days??? Ok so the industry has certainly had some fails but that's how we learn what works and what doesn't.
Having a mate who is currently in the process of putting a design of a new turbine into production I can assure you there is a HUGE cost involved with bringing something new to market. Bike companies don't do it for fun and I'm guessing with some of their fails over the years it's cost em a lot.
Rant Ends.
Back on topic......
Whilst this is true, why is no-one and I mean NO-ONE racing 26" anymore??? The bigger wheels, both 27.5 and 29 have proven to be significantly faster than 26" and to make them as stiff as the 26ers you mention "they" came up with boost. Given the number of manufacturers out there producing boost hubs I think it's here to stay.
I don't agree mate. As I mentioned above, the top levels are all running the new size wheels etc. Does this mean the average rider you mention needs them definitely not but it means that they have can have the same gear if they want it. I don't see that as me being told what I need.
Flow-Rider
Burner
How many people do you know that can ride at pro level, I prove to a lot of people that I can out ride them on a bike that has out dated specs on a constant basis and I'm far from a pro level rider. Mountain biking isn't only about racing or being fast and it's far cheaper for the average bear to have a decent bike at 26" than what it is at other wheels sizes, as soon as you go to bigger wheel sizes everything gets heavier and you need to spend more money on lightening wheels and then you run into other problems of flexing.
Pro riders don't pay for much out of their own pockets and any advantage of them being faster is taken up by them because you know they get paid thousands of dollars to win but forcing your average rider into these standards is a joke. If you're a competitive person and you want to do the racing scene it might be your thing to get onto the latest standard but as for your everyday rider that rides for fun there's really no need.
I've been to a few local bikes shops and none of them will stock any 26" inch gear and they tell people that the 26" bikes are no good so no need to stock the parts, so yes I'm getting told that I can't have 26" parts when in fact I can buy parts for 26" online in abundance. Yeah, sure it's nice to have a current model bike but to be forced into one for no other reason than you can't get basic parts for your old bike is a joke and 'Pro Riders' use them so they must be good and for everyone riding at amateur level is a bit underwhelming in my eyes.
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pink poodle
気が狂っている男
I'm not too fussed with the wheel size debate, it's a done deal and was a total gong show. Bigger wheels seem to have lead on to a big change in the way trails are built and also the way people ride. Attitude and ego seem to be norm these days, rather than the joy of riding. The big "fuck you consumer!" changes in my opinion are things like tapered steerers, axle fuck around, and the follow on from that. No significant gains seem to be on offer, but there they are...because you need another option.
Don't get me wrong, I dig that things are evolving and getting better. How good were the old days when all you had to look forward to on next year's model was a different colour??? Ahhhhh take me back...
Don't get me wrong, I dig that things are evolving and getting better. How good were the old days when all you had to look forward to on next year's model was a different colour??? Ahhhhh take me back...
Calvin27
Eats Squid
Progress is fine. Bullshit is not.
Boost is basically as obvious example of new for newness sake. At the time everyone asked why dont we just use the downhill standard? Between dh standard and 135/142 there is not much a couple mill each side... Why create a new standard that has really marginal benefits but so many cons for the consumer? Fast forward and now the industry is going backwards with qr boost and then basically reverting to a dh standard with all their reasons why it wouldn't work apparently now no longer relevant. That's bullshit to me.
nzhumpy
Googlemeister who likes bikes and scandal
Maybe this should be worked out at R&D stage rather than than using the consumer as the beta tester and released straight to market ?
SummitFever
Eats Squid
The R&D of moving some hub flanges out a couple of mm will be SFA. It's all just cynical planned obsolescence from the big players. All of the benefits and more of rear boost could have been achieved with running an asymmetric rear end and all you'd need is a wheel re-dish with no new hubs required (I think crack'n'fail may have done this or may still be doing this). Hub spoke counts could also have been increased. This used to be the way things were. If you needed stronger wheels go with 36h. Now manufacturers make 28h system wheels (and even 24h) in boost which must be flexier than 32h non-boost all other things being equal. That's bullshit right there... It's not in any way progress, its just change. Change is not always progress.
EsPeGe
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Sorry mate I don’t think that’s the point here. I know from my own experience that I am significantly faster on both the bigger wheel sizes than I was on a 26. I’ve got years of times to prove it. Ok some of that will be me improving as I raced more but I don’t believe anyone can argue that the bigger wheels don’t provide significant benefits. Would you be even quicker on bigger wheels? It’s imaterial as you choose to ride 26 but I don’t think you can use it as an arguement because you on 26” wheels are quicker than others in 27.5” wheels.
I also find it mildly ironic that people (and I’m not saying you specifically here mate) argue there are too many standards but now 26” is slowly but surely disappearing from main stream because the standard has changed those same folks then say we need to keep the old standard too. Isn’t that a double standard???? See what I did there???
True but why does that mean I should be limited in what I can buy? I can afford to buy and pimp out my bikes. I do shitloads of research and work out exactly what I want and build it. Just because I’m not pro level doesn’t mean I should be limited. Now I know what you’ll say here, that it’s hypocritical to say what I did above in regards a standard dying out and then say “but hey I should be able to buy what I want” so let me qualify that. I should be able to buy the same gear as a pro if I want to. That doesn’t mean that the manufacturers should cater to my every whim, there has to be some common sense applied.
I just see this as basic economics. I don’t agree that 26 is no good but I do believe that mtbing has moved on. I don’t think if I owned a shop I’d be stocking it either. That’s my opinion of course and I’m not trying to crank up debate.
redbruce
Eats Squid
Yep. American Classic (AC) wheels have run high flange designs for years to improve bracing angle, and stuck with 32 spoke designs yet were amongst the lightest wheels out there while still being stiff. Arguably Bill Shooks (engineer, designer, owner of AC) is the only one to understand and put into practice. He originally argued his design achieved all of the benefit of the boost design and offered adapter kits to fit new frames, eventually it was a case of if you cant beat them join them, but with Bill's usual ground up approach.
Bill on boost:
AC is only one of his engineering businesses. Disillusioned with the industry, after 35 years he recently pulled out of wheel manufacture.
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I agree trails have changed but I dunno if it’s just wheel size that is driving it. The whole Enduro 160mm+ squish thing did more damage imo.. The mtb media went crazy for it and you were a fool if you rode anything less than 150mm on xc stuff.
Certain trails in Melb have changed for the worse because the builders bought long travel bikes and changed the trails. Even if the terrain doesn’t suit gravity bikes..
And now with the whole enduro bro thing which is all abouts looks, the fuck off attitude comes with it along with the fuckwits that want to crush berms like they see on pinkbike..
I agree though the brand new trails being built are made for bigger wheeled, modern geo bikes that are super capable..
pink poodle
気が狂っている男
1) this the chicken vs egg...I don't know which is diving what, but as wheels got bigger the trails I ride regularly (and don't build) have changed. They have more straight lines, more obtuse corners, flatter berms, less rocks/logs/chunder, jumps are vanishing or are flat and small, sharp transitions and g-outs are gone, b-lines + straight lines through corners...and fuckwits that ride up gravity trails are all around us. The connection I see are less skilled riders, a focus on speed/time as the only measure of good riding, and older style trails not suiting the bigger (especially biggest) wheels as much as newer. An easy example there being that a short steep angled 26 inch bike like my 4x bike will be able to smoothly transition through a sharper switch back than a long slack 29er. I may have built a legal trail in a sanctioned fashion on private land a long time ago that featured a variety of obstacles tightly packed (eg drop to sharp berm to roll over to chunder to sharp berm to big jump) to challenge riders into really controlling their bikes. This trail was continually vandalised by riders who were unable to link it all up so that it was more open and flowed faster. It rides nice either way. The local general use dirt jumps are a great example. I assisted at the sanctioned trail building days constructing/repairing them and...well fuck it, they aren't really jumps are they? Apparently you can't make them too steep, too big, too technical, too dirt jump...cooperating melts my brain. Too many middle aged men on wagon wheels like to ride along the jumps like they are just big rolling bumps.
2) while I probably more resemble the squishy rider (I've got abs underneath!!!) it passes me off when people want to change existing trails to suit their riding style. Be it squishy or be it pedal fast, if the trail doesn't suit your desires...build your own fresh one, don't steal it.
3) sadly I see as much of this from Lycra clad whippets, grumpy old men, lawyers who brought a fuck off expensive bike but no brains, cunts with overly powerful lights, cx bike riders, xc bike riders, and the ever growing cunt-fest that is e-bikers. I think it's the way of modern people and I eagerly await it's demise. Surely short of crashing and getting fucked up, the worst a day on the trail could possibly be is good?
4) these arseholes...is it just here, or everywhere else too that these arseholes are the kind of guys that never turn up to a build day? I'm sure that if they ever bothered to lift a shovel they would have a lot more respect for the berms.
5) super capable is a matter of perspective. As is all my ranting. It's the joy of being a grumpy old man...
Flow-Rider
Burner
You hit the nail right on the head. We've got tightly bermed switch backs here on a trail that's been built for years and they can't corner fast and accelerate fast out of the corners so they just straight line down the centre, you know because they can't Strava a fast time. Most of them spend more time in bandages off the bike because they ride like the Red Barron without the piloting skills.