Observations of mountain biking from the past 30 years

[birddog69]

people were short cutting switchbacks, making Strava lines, riding muddy trails and skidding into corners long before Ebikes were a thing.

I agree on this one. The damage I see is mainly down to the bad behavior @Stredda lists. I do a lot of bush walking as well and same damage for same reasons. Most people that do the damage, I suspect as don't really know, just expect others to fix up the mess. I don't see the evidence that it is E bikes.

 

[Stredda]

I agree on this one. The damage I see is mainly down to the bad behavior @Stredda lists. I do a lot of bush walking as well and same damage for same reasons. Most people that do the damage, I suspect as don't really know, just expect others to fix up the mess. I don't see the evidence that it is E bikes.

Agree. It's the type of rider that are doing the damage not the type of bike. Sometimes it's just because they don't know any better and sometimes, they just don't give a shit. Dicks will be dicks.

 

[Stredda]

Ahh the scourge of E-MTB's. I was talking to a mate who has a E-mtb ( I do not yet) He says E-MTB are like what we had in the earlier 80'S when snow boards started making there way on to ski resorts and told no way your not coming on the lifts you damage the slopes cause injuiries blah blah blah.
Perisher relented and let them use two lifts the t-bar on the link between Smiggins and Persiher ( only one side of the link and a fair hike to get there) and the beginers rope tow. Look at Snowboarding now ski resorts can't spend enough to get boarders to their resort.

As my mate say's in another 5-10 years all the hoo-ha will be forgotten.

I see a pecking order out in the bush. Hikers dislike mtb, mtb dislike motos( and now dislike E-mtb) motos dislike 4wds You can throw horses some where into the equation. They probally dislike all of the above.

I once witnessed the conversation on the use of walking poles on a bushwalking page. Started out as someone just asking what poles people prefer, and ended up in huge rants about how walking poles cause damage to the hiking trails and if you weren't strong enough to go without them you shouldn't be out there.

 

[slimjim1]

If you weren't strong enough to go without them you shouldn't be out there.

Is there actually something to this though? Should people actually be riding singletrack if they are unable to do it without the assistance? What about backcountry rides with limited/no phone reception etc? Should fat white people be climbing Everest and expect to be rescued when it all turns to shit?

On a local MTB fuckbook group recently a Uni researcher posted asking for responses/participants into a study they were doing into E-MTB injuries. There was a couple of fairly hostile responses from some of the older eeb riders along the lines of 'this has the capacity to damage the sport'. What were they worried about? I keep hearing from the same people that there is no difference between E and acoustic in pretty much every other respect. Wouldn't the results of such a study align with the data we already have on MTB injuries?

I feel like there is definitely a fine line between being inclusive and pandering/personal responsibility.

 

[bigdamo]

What I see doing the most damage to trails is MTBers. Whether that is MTBer's riding water logged trails even when they're are closed be it E-Mtb or analog MTb.s MTBer's who see fit to change Mtb trails for what ever reason E-Mtber's or analog Mtber's.

 

[mike14]

Is there actually something to this though? Should people actually be riding singletrack if they are unable to do it without the assistance? What about backcountry rides with limited/no phone reception etc? Should fat white people be climbing Everest and expect to be rescued when it all turns to shit?

On a local MTB fuckbook group recently a Uni researcher posted asking for responses/participants into a study they were doing into E-MTB injuries. There was a couple of fairly hostile responses from some of the older eeb riders along the lines of 'this has the capacity to damage the sport'. What were they worried about? I keep hearing from the same people that there is no difference between E and acoustic in pretty much every other respect. Wouldn't the results of such a study align with the data we already have on MTB injuries?

I feel like there is definitely a fine line between being inclusive and pandering/personal responsibility.

But how does that differentiate e-MTB risk from normal MTB risk? Am I allowed to send myself down a double-black that's way over my head on a standard bike just because i spent all my energy doing the climb 'properly'? Surely that's more dangerous than an unfit person lapping blues on their e-bike?
Why should someone with a degenerative knee condition not be able to ride singletrack if they enjoy it and there's technology to help them do it?
Obviously individual risk appreciation has to come into it, like all activities, but saying that people can't enjoy mtb trails unless they aren't injured or disabled in any way seems pretty off...

 

[bigdamo]

Is there actually something to this though? Should people actually be riding singletrack if they are unable to do it without the assistance? What about backcountry rides with limited/no phone reception etc? Should fat white people be climbing Everest and expect to be rescued when it all turns to shit?

I use hiking poles when ascending and descending big hills/mountains climbs with a 18 kg pack on because my knees ain't what they used to be. Should I have to give up my overnight hikes into the wilderness because someone thinks poles are an easy way out.

Same goes with E-Mtb's when i get older and my body can't do what it used to do do I have to give up MTBing

 

[pink poodle]

The death of the one great rule to bind them all...




NO DIG = NO RIDE




I have no other contributions.

 

[Scotty T]

Wouldn't the results of such a study align with the data we already have on MTB injuries?

I feel like there is definitely a fine line between being inclusive and pandering/personal responsibility.

Anecdotally, I know of more than one accident that happened due to a e-mtber not having the skill to cope with being launched up to 25km/h in a few pedal strokes, it is a real concern. I def scared myself riding narrow hand cut stuff at Crackenback resort and barely going under 25km/h on much of it.

 

[Stredda]

But how does that differentiate e-MTB risk from normal MTB risk? Am I allowed to send myself down a double-black that's way over my head on a standard bike just because i spent all my energy doing the climb 'properly'? Surely that's more dangerous than an unfit person lapping blues on their e-bike?
Why should someone with a degenerative knee condition not be able to ride singletrack if they enjoy it and there's technology to help them do it?
Obviously individual risk appreciation has to come into it, like all activities, but saying that people can't enjoy mtb trails unless they aren't injured or disabled in any way seems pretty off...

Bang on there Mike. I've heard the whole, " those Ebikers will get stuck out in the middle of nowhere" and the exact same thing can happen on a normal bike. If you miscalculate the distance of the trail, you are riding and you seriously bonk and can't ride back, what's the difference?
And as you said, anyone can ride their bike to the top of a black trail and get out of their ability.

 

[cokeonspecialtwodollars]

I did mean to add to my original post that I think clubs are 94% of the problem with the direction mountain biking is going. I ran a club for yonks and tried to make it as care free for all involved as possible. I ran the thing basically by myself and staged some of the biggest events we've seen.

Having been a patron of your events I can attest to this, they were always no fuss and extremely enjoyable.

It isn't really public knowledge but I'm part of the reason MTBA went arse up. They didn't support mountain biking whatsoever and were nothing more than an insurance company. The amount of money they wanted clubs to pay them to host a big event only to have no support with staffing an event was fucking outrageous and needed to stop. It stopped.

This is one of many reasons that I stopped giving our national representative body my hard earned many years ago however things haven't exactly got any better under the new stewardship, clubs are still required to pay to hold an event and get nothing in the way of support in return. It'd be awesome to see guerrilla racing make a comeback but as you say nobody is willing to take the risk with the insurance, although there are a couple of cracking annual social ride events in NSW that are bringing back that old school MTB vibe.

 

[Plankosaurus]

Bang on there Mike. I've heard the whole, " those Ebikers will get stuck out in the middle of nowhere" and the exact same thing can happen on a normal bike. If you miscalculate the distance of the trail, you are riding and you seriously bonk and can't ride back, what's the difference?
And as you said, anyone can ride their bike to the top of a black trail and get out of their ability.

The difference is that most people that get out there on a MTB will have to have built up fitness in order to find themselves with elevation. Fitness requires riding, riding equals a better understanding of trails and techniques. This isn't infallible, but definitely a lot better than buying a $10k ebike on Friday and getting to the top of Silvan on Saturday

I didn't hate ebikes because I used to be able to more or less ignore them if I felt like it, but they're so prolific now it's hard to look in any direction and not see them. I'd also argue that they won't necessarily damage a trail more than a seasoned rider doing the same ride, but because there are so many of them and so many are noobish or the "I don't give a fuck" type, they DO create new lines and cut corners and mess up hard work done by builders.

If I'm being honest, part of the reason I've been away from the trails as much as I have is because I've lost a lot of tolerance for these things (There's definitely a lot more to it than just that, it's also definitely a thing though). I have no patience for listening to people telling me I should give it a try, or even just for listening to the abominations whirring along behind me on a climb. I got sick of being shitty so I just avoided riding with them, which means a lot of the time I've avoided riding.

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[Calvin27]

NO DIG = NO RIDE

Tell that to the poor kids who spend their entire school holidays making sick features only for the council to bulldoze them!

Anecdotally, I know of more than one accident that happened due to a e-mtber not having the skill to cope with being launched up to 25km/h in a few pedal strokes, it is a real concern.

Mystic was notorious for this in the initial stages. I swear it was about a 50% chance I'd see some dude in jeans riding an ebike bin it hard on the descent - and that's a 100% descend trail!

 

[Plankosaurus]

I did mean to add to my original post that I think clubs are 94% of the problem with the direction mountain biking is going. I ran a club for yonks and tried to make it as care free for all involved as possible. I ran the thing basically by myself and staged some of the biggest events we've seen. People tried to jump in and make money off my hard work so I turfed it. The lazy bunch of people trying to get rich all disappeared and my beautiful trails that staged some of the most fun events ever have decayed. It should never be about making money. Geez, my speadsheet says I'm $15,000 out of pocket for what I pumped into it. Still, I had one of the world's leading commissaires tell me my trails were the best presented he's seen, was very proud. I also loved a comment from a visitor who said my events were so fun and reminded him of some wild west kind of adventure.

A relatively new issue I'm seeing develop is club's being awarded government grant money to build new trails. It sees as though the clincher to get the money over the line is saying you're hiring trail building experts to build trails for adaptive cyclists. I'm not aiming to sound like an arsehole here but this does not help the development of trail networks beyond easy wide green trails that suit only a handful of people Australia wide. For sure, build trails to suit adaptive people getting out for a fang around but build trails to suit all levels of riding skill, not just one. And a $500,000 grant for a guy to spend six months on a digger to build one trail is a rip off. I could build the same trail by hand in that time and you'd still have $450,000 left over.
The club system stinks and you're all just running scared of the big bad insurance man. That is a big problem in this country and dictates far too much of getting people involved in riding bikes.
It isn't really public knowledge but I'm part of the reason MTBA went arse up. They didn't support mountain biking whatsoever and were nothing more than an insurance company. The amount of money they wanted clubs to pay them to host a big event only to have no support with staffing an event was fucking outrageous and needed to stop. It stopped.

I don't think clubs take that much of the blame, definitely some, but I still think the industry as a whole shoulders the responsibility of the shitty direction. It's moved from "fitness + fun + community" to "fun, and fuck everything else" and I think it's got a lot to do with the lifestyle we're being sold at shops and in media. It's nuanced for sure, but you just don't see the same numbers of people rocking up to trail maintenance and all but the biggest events are fizzers unless there's a shuttle involved.

I definitely don't like the emphasis on grants either, before I gave it all up my local Club seemed to be more and more focused on that. The fact you brought up adaptive rider trails is pretty close to home here too. Was shouted down when I questioned if this was going to see further dumbing down of our already increasingly sanitized network. I got told all about how they can ride gnarly stuff and hit big features and that I shouldn't be against them getting access to the trails, but never got an answer as to whether we'd see our few "black" trails get a lot more blue

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[Halo1]

The death of the one great rule to bind them all...




NO DIG = NO RIDE




I have no other contributions.

New rule

No dig no strava account.

World wide shortage of shovels will follow.

 

[Jabubu]

Cairns MTB Club is aiming for grants to build more hand cut black trails to improve the diversity of enduro trails for racing. It's common knowledge here that we have massive scope for improvement in all areas including green trails for getting more kids and families introduced to MTB. Atherton has some great higher green trails which are fun and good exercise - if grants bought those then bring it on!

 

[Stredda]

Cairns MTB Club is aiming for grants to build more hand cut black trails to improve the diversity of enduro trails for racing. It's common knowledge here that we have massive scope for improvement in all areas including green trails for getting more kids and families introduced to MTB. Atherton has some great higher green trails which are fun and good exercise - if grants bought those then bring it on!

The club I sit on the executive committee of, applies for a lot and gets a few grants to build trail and MTB facilites. If we were to have done it with hand tools and volunteers we'd still have only a few km of trails. We wouldn't have the Iron Tor trail if it wasn't for grants.
As for insurance it's a necessary evil of modern society. Our club has AusCycling insurance as it covers the club and our volunteers. We are not putting the club and our members at financial risk if we don't. Insurance doesn't affect what we build though, be it green or adaptive trail or double black and free ride, insurance has nothing to do with that.

 

[Jabubu]

The club I sit on the executive committee of, applies for a lot and gets a few grants to build trail and MTB facilites. If we were to have done it with hand tools and volunteers we'd still have only a few km of trails. We wouldn't have the Iron Tor trail if it wasn't for grants.
As for insurance it's a necessary evil of modern society. Our club has AusCycling insurance as it covers the club and our volunteers. We are not putting the club and our members at financial risk if we don't. Insurance doesn't affect what we build though, be it green or adaptive trail or double black and free ride, insurance has nothing to do with that.

Did you mean to reply to me with that? I'm not against insurance and I'm quite in favour of grants btw..

 

[slimjim1]

Anecdotally, I know of more than one accident that happened due to a e-mtber not having the skill to cope with being launched up to 25km/h in a few pedal strokes, it is a real concern. I def scared myself riding narrow hand cut stuff at Crackenback resort and barely going under 25km/h on much of it.

I think the growth of the sport, especially since COVID and the changes in trail design have a lot to answer for.

There is just too many people throwing themselves in the deep end and/or not taking personal responsibility and/or not appreciating the risks. Not just riders but also people who are allowing their young children to play on MTB trails etc (numerous stories from Stromlo of riders injured with kids playing on landers of jump trails). Or the story about the Karen who went off at Handlebar staff because they did not provide a first aid kit for injured child/hubby.

Anecdotally, there does seem to be a lot more stories of injuries etc coming out of that place even with the massive increase in numbers. I won't ride there anymore - the post above about not having tolerance for this BS is spot on. I feel like a lot of newer riders have skipped a whole step of riding on fireroads to build fitness and bike handling, because its 'not MTB', shredding looks easy on Youtube and they want instant gratification.

Flow trails - The speeds you can easily achieve on some of these downhill flow trails with minimal effort is ludicrous IMO. There's too much of a false sense of security IMO. More natural trail designs regulate speed better and require more effort and a more thoughtful approach to riding. Also wear much better and require less maintenance. I remember a thread on here about Hero trail being closed down shortly after being built due to the big increase in injuries - even though 'gnarlier' trails already existed there.

E bikes are just a part of this. Arguably shuttling as well. Lowering the fitness/effort barrier.

The industry of course is loving all the extra $$$.

 

[Stredda]

Did you mean to reply to me with that? I'm not against insurance and I'm quite in favour of grants btw..

Na, just to a few previous comments about grants and insurance.
I'd love to not need the insurance and I wish we didn't have to write grant applications and Parks RAAs and the like but those are the cards we are delt with.