Project Car / Motorbike thread. Let's see 'em.

[Haakon]

I've been musing over the electric car and it's recharging requirements for ages and I can't recall if I've mentioned it here.

Swap and go batteries are the only way to go, pull into a servo and swap out low batteries for full ones and off you go. Charging might be ok for city cars but then you need long distance ones in the big country. There is no easy solution in this country.

No, that’s been considered and rejected by the industry. Battery packs are not a big Energiser D cell - they’re complex. There are built in electronics, there are cooling systems plumbed into the cars, there are canbus interactions etc etc. Swap and go is not a thing...

Add into that the fact that it’s the single most expensive component of your pride and joy that can be damaged and degraded by abuse and do you want to be handing that off and getting a pack with an unknown history?

Fast charging is good enough now and getting better fast. The road trip scenario is rare for a heavily urbanised country like Australia. If you are one of the small proportion of the population who regularly does more than 5-600 kms in a day and never needs to eat/pee than an EV might not be your thing.

Longest drive I ever do is going home to Melbourne from Canberra, and a Model 3 does that 800kmish run with 30-40 min stopped at Gundagai or Aulbury or somewhere along the way. I hate that drive, I always stop for a leg stretch and a “get out of the bloody car for a bit” stop anyway...

 

[SummitFever]

I wonder how will places like Albury provide the hundreds (thousands?) of charging parking places? Aside from the huge amount of power for fast charging there is also a large requirement for land. Infrastructure requirements will be tricky.

 

[Haakon]

I wonder how will places like Albury provide the hundreds (thousands?) of charging parking places? Aside from the huge amount of power for fast charging there is also a large requirement for land. Infrastructure requirements will be tricky.

You’re still looking at it using the petrol delivery model where the public delivery is your only means of fuelling though - it’s rare to need fast charging. Tesla and other companies are comfortably exceeding capacity at charging points, the market will meet the demand growth as it goes. It’s a pay to fuel mode like any other, it’s just user pays so the price will reflect the build - just like the petrol delivery infrastructure. But cheaper.

 

[hifiandmtb]

Fast charging is good enough now and getting better fast. The road trip scenario is rare for a heavily urbanised country like Australia. If you are one of the small proportion of the population who regularly does more than 5-600 kms in a day and never needs to eat/pee than an EV might not be your thing.

This.

“EVs are no good because they don’t work for 1% of the population requirements”.

Dumb argument. Tell that to those swanning around the burbs in a bloody 4WD.

 

[Ultra Lord]

Cannot wait till I don’t have to pull into a servo to fill up. I’d much rather just plug it in and let it go overnight.

 

[Haakon]

Cannot wait till I don’t have to pull into a servo to fill up. I’d much rather just plug it in and let it go overnight.

Yep, the whole fuelling out in the world at public facilities caper is super inconvenient... And stinky.

 

[Cardy George]

I've started this Electric Vehicles etc

Because I genuinely want to learn.

And we're screwing over a perfectly good project car thread

 

[Haakon]

I've started this Electric Vehicles etc

Because I genuinely want to learn.

And we're screwing over a perfectly good project car thread

Holy thread hijack batman! Mods, move as appropriate

 

[Cardy George]

Holy thread hijack batman! Mods, move as appropriate

Just getting in before you start talking about electric Camrys

 

[Flow-Rider]

The thing is that with a hydrogen car you need a fast fill every time because you’re having to go to a filling station like an ICE. For a BEV car, who cares how long it takes to charge when 95% of the charging is overnight at home. The need for a fast charge is rare and 200kms of range in 10 min is fine.

The whole “it refills fast” argument ignores the way electric cars are actually used in the real world.

You can do a 75% recharge in about 3/4 of an hr with a tesla, it's just the BIG price difference between an ICE. If you look at the Hyundai EV & ICE prices it's about 50% difference.

 

[Haakon]

You can do a 75% recharge in about 3/4 of an hr with a tesla, it's just the BIG price difference between an ICE. If you look at the Hyundai EV & ICE prices it's about 50% difference.

And falling fast. VW are selling their ID3 for high spec golf money and expect EVs to be price parity and cheaper more broadly inside 10 years.

But Tesla’s are price competitive in the market they operate in (ie high spec high performance luxury), especially on a cost of ownership basis.

There was one YouTube guy who worked out his Model 3 doing 50000miles a year was cheaper to own and operate than a Camry.

 

[SummitFever]

You’re still looking at it using the petrol delivery model where the public delivery is your only means of fuelling though - it’s rare to need fast charging. Tesla and other companies are comfortably exceeding capacity at charging points, the market will meet the demand growth as it goes. It’s a pay to fuel mode like any other, it’s just user pays so the price will reflect the build - just like the petrol delivery infrastructure. But cheaper.

I don't follow. Here's your scenario: road trip Sydney to Melbourne. You and lots of other people get halfway and need to recharge. You need 30-40 min to fast charge. This means, you and everyone else that is doing this in your recharge time window (eg 30-40 mins) will need a parking spot and fast charger for 30 minutes.

This could add up to a lot of spots being required so people don't have to wait for a spot. If there's insufficient spots then waiting for someone else (or many others) could make such a stopover much longer. Recharge times and charger throughput is a big scale issue for the current technology.

Of course if you've got a mate in Albury and you stay overnight with him it's not going to be a problem, but for any length road trip you are absolutely going to want to change "on the road" and not have to overnight each time a recharge is required.

 

[Haakon]

I don't follow. Here's your scenario: road trip Sydney to Melbourne. You and lots of other people get halfway and need to recharge. You need 30-40 min to fast charge. This means, you and everyone else that is doing this in your recharge time window (eg 30-40 mins) will need a parking spot and fast charger for 30 minutes.

This could add up to a lot of spots being required so people don't have to wait for a spot. If there's insufficient spots then waiting for someone else (or many others) could make such a stopover much longer. Recharge times and charger throughput is a big scale issue for the current technology.

Of course if you've got a mate in Albury and you stay overnight with him it's not going to be a problem, but for any length road trip you are absolutely going to want to change "on the road" and not have to overnight each time a recharge is required.

Just saying the market will meet the demand. And if it’s high volume road house scenario serving the Hume through traffic it will outside town on the highway like existing roadhouses anyway.

 

[Tubbsy]

An interesting point @SummitFever - I wonder if a pre-booking system via your phone would work - ie you get an ETA for Albury through your phone and it makes sure there's a spot available when you pull up.

My guess is that EV take-up will be heavily city-biased early on. Those doing regular country driving will be less likely to be early adopters.

As @Haakon says, the technology is maturing and will no doubt meet demand by the time those drivers make the switch.

 

[SummitFever]

My hunch is we'll see some real growing pains when the EVs are finally commercially viable. Usual sort of chicken and the egg problem.

My only hope is that the retooling of the infrastructure required for EVs isn't an environmental disaster in itself. See this article for example: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49567197

 

[Haakon]

My hunch is we'll see some real growing pains when the EVs are finally commercially viable. Usual sort of chicken and the egg problem.

My only hope is that the retooling of the infrastructure required for EVs isn't an environmental disaster in itself. See this article for example: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49567197

EVs are commercially viable now.

 

[Ultra Lord]

EVs are commercially viable now.

Shhhhhhhhh, no they aren’t.

 

[SummitFever]

Maybe "commercially viable" is the wrong term. EVs will need to be cheaper than ICE before they will win over the consumer. They come with limitations (eg. range) and unknowns (eg. battery life/cost/reliability etc.). Also throwing out a perfectly good ICE to buy an EV is also not great for the environment. Doing less driving of any kind is what we should be doing. Ride more...

 

[Flow-Rider]

EVs are commercially viable now.

I've got a Toll depo around the road and they trialled some EV trucks for a while and it didn't go down too well. Only winners that seem to be are the hybrids with the Taxi companies because they can get really big mileage out of them by spending less on maintenance. Unless you get something really small and cheap I don't think they'll appeal to low mileage drivers ATM.

 

[Haakon]

I've got a Toll depo around the road and they trialled some EV trucks for a while and it didn't go down too well. Only winners that seem to be are the hybrids with the Taxi companies because they can get really big mileage out of them by spending less on maintenance. Unless you get something really small and cheap I don't think they'll appeal to low mileage drivers ATM.

Two extreme usage scenarios of little interest to the vast majority of consumers.

You’ll always find exceptions to the rule, don’t alter the fact there are many many users that will find an EV a cost effective and practical option.