2012 Scott Spark 29er

[quiggs]

If you want to think about this stuff clearly...
a) don't read marketing blurbs
b) draw a static free body diagram
c) draw a dynamic diagram

For the sake of disambiguation:

There's only one dual suspension 29er out there with zero chain growth - Lenz Milk Money. To achieve zero chain growth,the rear axle must move on a constant radius arc around the bottom bracket (sometimes referred to as a "concentric pivot"). It's only a useful concept if you want to run a dually single speed - and is otherwise detrimental.

Most suspension designs will utilise a rearward axle path early in the stroke. This means that chain tension resists the compressive force on the shock and prevents "squat" or "bob" characteristics, which would be when chain tension acts as an additional compressive force. Chain power is provided by the rider and is regulated through the spring and cage on a derailleur. There's no way that chain growth can make it harder to pedal. It's not like the suspension actually tries to make your chain go backwards - it just increases chain length, the derailleur adjusts tension accordingly, and your legs will never know the difference.

The whole selling point of multi-link setups like DW/Maestro is a variable axle path, so that the influence of chain tension is varied throughout the travel.

Brake jack is a force and moment created by the caliper that can act through a linkage to produce a force at the rear shock that tries to extend it. It looks like Scott have slotted the brake mount on the chainstay... this changes the braking dynamic compared to traditional seatstay mounts. Where did the phrase "isolating" a force come from? Forces don't disappear, they have to be resolved somewhere.... the force involved is tiny on short travel bikes with small rotors anyway.

Not only is he fast on the bike he is clearly smart too!

I need to have a sleep after raeding that my head hurts

quiggs

 

[jathanas]

Not only is he fast on the bike he is clearly smart too!

I need to have a sleep after raeding that my head hurts

quiggs

That was a very eloquent way of making someone look 100% ill-informed wasn't it? I share your headache after reading that...

 

[SummitFever]

...Chain power is provided by the rider and is regulated through the spring and cage on a derailleur. There's no way that chain growth can make it harder to pedal. It's not like the suspension actually tries to make your chain go backwards - it just increases chain length, the derailleur adjusts tension accordingly, and your legs will never know the difference...

Seriously? Pedal force goes from the top of the chainring back to the top of the gears on the cluster. How can the derailleur have anything to do with it? The derailleur is not in the tensioned part of the system. The pedal feedback you get feels like a little tug on the pedals in an otherwise smooth pedal stroke when putting the power down and running into a square edge bump. It makes it just that little bit harder to ride over an uphill bump.

Saying its "hard to buy a turkey these days" is like saying "there's no difference between 26, 650b and 29er wheels", or "all tyres are the same".

If you think all the suspension designs are much of a muchness then good for you. A good suspension package is performance for free. I certainly wouldn't want to leave that lying on the table

 

[tomacropod]

Seriously? Pedal force goes from the top of the chainring back to the top of the gears on the cluster. How can the derailleur have anything to do with it? The derailleur is not in the tensioned part of the system. The pedal feedback you get feels like a little tug on the pedals in an otherwise smooth pedal stroke when putting the power down and running into a square edge bump. It makes it just that little bit harder to ride over an uphill bump.

Saying its "hard to buy a turkey these days" is like saying "there's no difference between 26, 650b and 29er wheels", or "all tyres are the same".

If you think all the suspension designs are much of a muchness then good for you. A good suspension package is performance for free. I certainly wouldn't want to leave that lying on the table

Sounds like you need a beer and a hardtail.

- Joel

 

[jathanas]

Saying its "hard to buy a turkey these days" is like saying "there's no difference between 26, 650b and 29er wheels", or "all tyres are the same".

No, it's not.

My point, and maybe I could have explained it better, was that every suspension design I've owned has worked very well for me once set-up correctly for my weight, trail, & riding style.

I've never felt that the Giant Maestro system I had on the AnthemX, was superior to the BMC Fourstroke, Specialized Epic(s), or Yeti ASRc I've owned. It worked great but wasn't better. Hence, it's hard to buy a turkey these days.

Best, J

 

[mtb101]

I had a Rocky Mountain ETSX years ago and one of the big selling points was that the rear suspension traveled on a vertical plane, the sales pitch being that it was based on formula 1 suspension system. Bike could certainly take big hits - and tracked very straight on crazy rough terrain, but climbing wise suspension was so squashy it was like climbing on a water bed. Great set up until it cracked up.

 

[Bodin]

Ugh... again...

I've been loitering on this forum for a while now, so I'm probably more jaded than most when it comes to the inevitable arguments about which suspension platform is the best.

The reality is that if ultimate XC race performance is what you're all about, then there is still only an absolutely miniscule amount of evidence that ANY suspension platform outperforms a hardtail on any XC circuit. We were all predicting 10 years ago that all World Cups and World Champs would be won on suspension, but it's still not happening apart from the odd anomaly here and there and now we've got the added factor of 29er wheels in the case of Kulhavy's win a couple of World Cups ago, so NOBODY can debate the fact that NOBODY actually has a definitive answer about which platform is best or whether suspension is even needed in the first place.

While it's a topic that many get really passionate about, I'm more interested in whether anyone's actually ridden the specific bike that this thread is actually about... is there any chance that anyone can contribute something to this thread that ISN'T a suspension debate? It looks like a really awesome bike and we've stopped talking about it...

 

[Bodin]

Hey...

...look what just popped up on cyclingnews.com:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/2012-scott-spark-first-look

 

[jathanas]

...look what just popped up on cyclingnews.com:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/2012-scott-spark-first-look

Thanks for the link, I find this very interesting:

"...A testament to the truly progressive design of the new Spark is the frame's adjustable geometry via a shock mount chip, which offers a half-degree head angle adjustment and 7mm of bottom bracket height adjustment..."

EDIT: Especially so given the very low BB height on both my 29ers...

 

[toby]

Thanks for the link, I find this very interesting:

"...A testament to the truly progressive design of the new Spark is the frame's adjustable geometry via a shock mount chip, which offers a half-degree head angle adjustment and 7mm of bottom bracket height adjustment..."

EDIT: Especially so given the very low BB height on both my 29ers...

My understanding is that this will be an option on the 29er version only...

 

[tomacropod]

My understanding is that this will be an option on the 29er version only...

...due to the strong market demand for 29er riders to have excessive options for tuning and tweaking their suspension bikes, in a collective attempt to replicate the efficiency and maneuverability of their long-sold 26" bikes without compromising their tens of thousands of internet statements attesting to the superiority of their bizarre-looking manifestations of their own inadequacy as athletes?

- Joel

 

[jathanas]

That's frikkin' funny, a bit wicked but very funny.

I thought other dudes bought 29ers to compensate for inadequately sized genitalia.

...due to the strong market demand for 29er riders to have excessive options for tuning and tweaking their suspension bikes, in a collective attempt to replicate the efficiency and maneuverability of their long-sold 26" bikes without compromising their tens of thousands of internet statements attesting to the superiority of their bizarre-looking manifestations of their own inadequacy as athletes?

- Joel

 

[Bushranger]

Anyone seen or got one? doesn't seem to be much talk of this.

 

[Lukespook]

I got one - just the comp version.
I'm no expert and have been riding a Gt I-Drive FS 26er bike which I feel is fairly efficient in the suspension department - the 29er Spark seems just as good to me.
:single_eye:

 

[chopboy]

Test Ride

I've test ridden the Spark 29er Elite, and the Giant anthem 29er X0.
Test rode the Scott first as it was my preference, and really didn't love it. I think it would be sublime with the Nude 2 shock and traction control, but the only models to use that setup are above my price range.
With the shock open it rocked the descents, but would 'bob' when climbing. Coming off a hardtail I found the motion disconcerting, like all my energy (not that there's a lot) was being wasted bouncing up and down.
With the shock locked out it climbed like a hardtail. Ie. no rear wheel give on rocky climbs. Why spend this sort of cash on a heavy hardtail?

Reviews I've read have mostly dealt with the RC version, and typical comments indicate the lockout feature is really for bitumen or gravel roads only. Traction control nearly everywhere else, optionally opening it up for descents. It seems like the bike without the TC setting is loosing out on it's most used / useful suspension setting.

Compared to the Giant;
I found the Scott felt Plusher on descents - This may have been a shock pressure / setup thing, but maybe not. I altered the shock pressure in the Scott several times throughout the ride.
I found the giant better to climb on. - Maestro with Rockshocks platform damping vs Scott 4 bar and DT Swiss M210 open damper.
I found the giant "easier" to ride. - changing settings from Motion control 2-1-open was optional vs. the Scott which required adjustment to work well on the trail.

Something I did notice was the Scott Spark seemed to blow through it's travel easier than the Anthem, even when running at higher shock pressures on the Scott.

All in all it's still a good bike, but I bought the Giant.

 

[B Rabbit]

Many other people out there running these? thoughts?

Great looking bike, tossing up between this and the epic comp, in the lower spec models.

 

[MountGower]

Have a look at the HFM036 from Hong Fu. You may not have to settle for that lower spec after all.

I was at a Scott dealer a couple of days ago looking for a new bike for my daughter and what should I see when we got there? A girl in the car park holding a Long Teng LTK023 with Scott written on it.

I sometimes wonder if I'll ever buy a branded bike again.

 

[c3024446]

Have a look at the HFM036 from Hong Fu. You may not have to settle for that lower spec after all.

I was at a Scott dealer a couple of days ago looking for a new bike for my daughter and what should I see when we got there? A girl in the car park holding a Long Teng LTK023 with Scott written on it.

I sometimes wonder if I'll ever buy a branded bike again.

The Ltk023 has a 71deg head angle, 450mm chainstays. Spark has 69.5deg head angle, 438mm chain stays. They aren't the same, or are these differences minimal?

 

[MountGower]

Sorry if I have been harsh regarding the LTK023. I've been feeling very much over bike companies in the last decade or so. How is the geo comparison with the Spark and the 036? Did I get at least one out of two?

 

[c3024446]

^^ I think the FM056 is the Spark clone. I have a LTK023, not built up yet, but can't wait to ride it!