A question to ponder on WW2

TonyG

Likes Dirt
I was discussing WW2 with someone the other day and the question came up about why Japan was fighting against the same enemy as the Nazi’s.
Anyway we moved to the question of “what if” Japan had won the battle of the Pacific, and Germany the battle for Europe?
Do you think the two would then have had to face off, or would they just draw a line down the middle and take half each??
 

BM Epic

Eats Squid
Japan would have got china, australia, PNG,etc. Germany on the other hand would have swallowed the rest of europe, including the ussr and whatever else they desired in their conquest plans.
All this is hypothetical and a bit of a moot point, as they did not win.
But it is worth thinking about.
 

Cave Dweller

Eats Squid
Line in the sand while both parties tried to stabilsie and assert authority over the new conquests, then they would go after each other to prove which was the greater post-war super power. It would have been interesting times with 4 super powers, USSR, US, japan/china and Nazi Europe.

In the long run both empires would have crumbled anyway, empires always do.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Hello :)

I think ol' mate Cavey is pretty much on the money. You would end up with Russia, Japan, Nazi Europe and the USA. Realist theory would say that they then would compete for supremecy. Actually, there are multitudes of theories that kick in here, uni/bi/multipolar stability theory, balancing theory, etc. IT would really be up to a few variables though.

1. Which country could foster the greatest post war economy and convert that into military power. Now, at a guess, that would have to have been Europe and the US. Firstly, because that's what the US did after WW2 and they also would not have had the Marshall Plan taking large amounts of dollars out of the economy (one may also argue that the MArshall Plan helped build the US economy, but I'm not educated on those matters...). Also, the US has a pretty large area of exclusive influence (nth America((Canada, USA, Mexico), Central America and South America...., although of course history tells us that Sth America was not an exclusive sphere of influence for the US and neither was Central. One only has to look at the issues in Nicaragua, Chile, etc. to see the influence of Marxism/Socialism/USSR) and a large market to sell/buy to/from to strengthen it's economy.

Secondly it would have to be Europe. GB had huge industrial power and so did the Bundes Republic. Combine this with the added strong economies of Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, France, Austria etc. and you may well have the strongest economy at the time.

Russia and East Asia were pretty much basket cases at the time. Japan launched its attack on Pearl Harbour because its economy was beginning to pale against that of the US and its window of opportunity was closing, fast! China was useless and Sth Est Asia had nothing then and is only beginning to emerge as a useful block now that we have ASEAN. So, Russia and Japan definately would have been at the mercy of Europe and the US.

This begs the argument of who would pair up to balance the two sides. I would hazard a guess that maybe Russia and the US could not because of their competing economic ideologies..., which also pretty much precludes Russia from pairing up with anyone that wasn't at least socialist, really. That pretty much leaves the US and Europe to pair off because the US would not pair off with Japan just after they'd been attacked by them. This would also probably happen because this way you have the USSR contained by Europe from expansion on the Western front and by Asia/Japan on the Eastern front. The USSR thusly has three opponents with two of them physically constraining any territorial expansion.

That takes Russia out of the equation. HAving Russia pitted against the Japs means that the Japs are also contained by Russia on their Western front and also contained by the Pacific in the East. We also have to wonder whether they took Hawaii as well, that could be a significant part of the equation. Either way, Both Russia and Japan are contained on either side and Europe and the US can grow strong together.

This puts the US in a pretty good stead due to its geographic positioning. All Russia, Europe and Japan are connected by land, meaning that surprise attacks and creeping borders/territorial control and force projection are much easier, especially int he era that we are discussing. But to attack the US, one must cross either the Atlantic or the Pacific. That means that the US doesn't have to spend as much on continental defence as the other three players. US spends more on R&D, strengthening its economy, building greater force projection and being able to enforce its will in greater terms, over time on Japan. This is pretty much what we've seen after WW2 anyway. The US builds its navy and airfoce to defend itself over the oceans, not its own territory. Stop the enemy before they reach the mainland. That way, the US also builds a dual use defence force that can double as an offence force. Its navies and airforce can travel across the oceans to attack as well as defending the approaches to the mainland. that means that the US has to spend less money and creates power projection to coerce other nations and smaller regions, thusly expanding its power and influence in the world.

Thusly, the argument stands that the US would come out the eventual winner of any post WW2 power balance given your hypothetical question.




Although! There are many other variables to this equation that haven't been considered.

1. Did the US NOT make nuclear weapons and therefore in this post-WW2 scenario, the power projection capabilities of nations remain at only naval and air power?

2. Japan takes India, but how far did they make it West? Do they take Pakistan, Aghanistana nd press into the Middle East as Germany was attemtpting to do?

3. Did Germany end up taking Africa, if not, where does that continent fit into the picture.

etc. etc.



Did you honestly expect me to write any less? :)
 
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PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
The way I read the original question, for the Germans to have succeeded they would have had to defeat both the allies and the soviets. Hitlers imperial ambitions always leaned towards an eastwards expansion, so the finished Nazi empire would probably encompass all of the Soviet republics west of the Caucas mountains, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary etc. The Germans thought the slavic peoples to be absolutely worthless so I'd assume that Hitler would rule over them with an iron fist whilst appeasing Western Europe by relinquishing direct control over the likes of France, Belgium, Holland etc and installing friendly Vichy style governments.

The biggest implication of all this is that the Soviet Union would be non-existent. It's powerbase would be almost entirely in German hands and the rest of the Soviet republics would take this as an opportunity to revert to independance from the russians.
China would be screwed. Mao Zedong wouldn't have the support of the Soviets and the harshness of Japanese rule and 'traditional' Chinese compliance towards authority would mean that serious organised rebellion wouldn't be a factor for many years.
The US would probably cease hostilities with the Nazis and begin trading with them (remember that people of German heritage comprise a huge percentage of the population so it wouldn't be hard for the support for such a policy) After that you'd be looking at an alternative cold war with great mistrust between three superpowers instead of two.
On the plus side, we'd still end up with Video games and Manga, and we'd be drinking better beer a lot earlier however there's a very good chance that David Hasselhoff could become a world leader a la Ronald Reagan!:p
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yeah good point on Hitler taking Russia. I guess I only considered Westward. But why would he appease the Western European governments. I take the original question as that he took France, GB and the rest of Western Europe? Especially if he took Russia!
 

hdtvkss

Likes Dirt
In Americas favour is that with the exception of Pearl Harbour, its coast had not been crossed and had massive infrastructure as at the end of the war.Europe and Japan had both been largely bombed into submission and could only dream of the production that was coming out of the Henry Ford designed factories.

Germany would have been very very stretched trying to cover all that distance in a defensive stance as would any other Army.

Given that the non Axis Allied countries that are theoretically occupied by Germany would in probability be more likley to enjoy being occupied / liberated by the USA than ethnically cleansed by Nazi Germany, i think the USA would have had an easier time attacking these areas than being the incumbent defending Germans.

Asia and Europe are a whole different story.

In all probability, a world wide empire would be almost impossible to contain for any more than a short period of time by any of the 4 theoretical super powers.
 

GrubNut

Likes Dirt
Main difference is that Raiders of the Lost Ark would never have been made, and computer games would be allowed to put swastikas on the luftwaffe planes.
 

TonyG

Likes Dirt
Great responses guys,
The conversation I was referring to had a scenario of Germany defeating Russia (plausable) and England (and the US to some extent, as we know too many fronts but this is only hypothetical). Japan defeating the USA, Aust and China. Claiming all in the pacific.
The main military powers remaining being Germany and Japan, sure the US could trade but it would be many years before retaining it's military muscle.
Europe would probably be the most interesting development.
Another point was, if Germany had strengthened up and enlisted Russian and other eastern block nations (especially the blond haired, blue eyed variety) to the cause how they may feel about their non-white competitors.
 

BM Epic

Eats Squid
Yeah good point on Hitler taking Russia. I guess I only considered Westward. But why would he appease the Western European governments. I take the original question as that he took France, GB and the rest of Western Europe? Especially if he took Russia!
Also consider that germany were awfully close to making and producing atomic bombs in quantity, also they had just got there rocket powered v2 missiles working, with more time and refinement and if they had conquered the ussr i think they would have been a formidable opponent.
But i think your argument is awfully well thought through and the us still comes out the winner.
As one japanese admiral said after attacking pearl harbour, `we have awoken the sleeping giant'.
the US had one great advantage to the others and that was distance from them and the british had given them the gift of radar in 1944.
interesting thread because so many ifs,buts and maybes could have happened.
 

PINT of Stella. mate!

Many, many Scotches
But why would he appease the Western European governments. I take the original question as that he took France, GB and the rest of Western Europe? Especially if he took Russia!
He wouldn't be doing it to appease the W europe governments. It'd be to keep the rebellious populaces at an arms length. Hitler in his rather skewed views on racial superiority had a lot of respect for the west - particularly Scandinavia. He wouldn't be as willing to send millions of Brits, French or Norwegians to the chambers for insurgency as he would be to send millions of russians and polish.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
Yeah, that sounds pretty good to me. I really don't know that much about Hitler and his inner workings, so I'll stop making out like I do! :eek:
 

BM Epic

Eats Squid
He wouldn't be doing it to appease the W europe governments. It'd be to keep the rebellious populaces at an arms length. Hitler in his rather skewed views on racial superiority had a lot of respect for the west - particularly Scandinavia. He wouldn't be as willing to send millions of Brits, French or Norwegians to the chambers for insurgency as he would be to send millions of russians and polish.
hitler also used the anglo saxon argument before attacking great britain, he respected churchill, but before him he would tell chamberlain one thing then do the other,(hence the` peace in our time' quote from chamberlain), then hitler went and attacked czheckslovakia 5 months later, which in turn allowed churchill to overthrow chamberlain and his policy of appeasement.
Hitler actually used the anglo-saxon argument on chamberlain so GB would stay neutral to germany.
 

johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
If I remember correctly, Chamberlain actually realised what was going on but either had no choice or tried his best.

There is some famous quote that he made as he got off the plane in England after his deal with Hitler, can anybody help me out with what it was (I could google, but I need to go to the toilet....)

I embarrass myself with my lack of knowledge on this topic....
 

CGR

Likes Dirt
Also consider that germany were awfully close to making and producing atomic bombs in quantity
A fair bit off the original topic, i know, but....
I thought the the Germans were a fair way off the atomic bomb?
 

NCR600

Likes Dirt
It was never going to happen... Well, Germany certainly had the resources and the brains to conquer all of Western Europe, including Great Britain, but Hitler went bat-shit crazy and had surrounded himself with sycophants and yes men. If he'd left millitary tactics to Rommel and Guderian I have no doubt that England would have been under the Nazi jackboot. Unfortunately, he lost the war the day he opened the Eastern front and insisted on advancing through the winter instead of falling back to a pre prepared defensive line to sit it out (as suggested by Guderian)

Likewise the Japanese moved too far, too fast. Their hunger for territory outstripped their ability to supply their own troops. Early on in the piece things looked sketchy for Australia and the USA. It looked as if the USA would have to surrender Australia and New Zealand to Tojo and fall back to a line drawn between Alaska, Hawaii and Chile, not dissimilar to Australia's own "Brisbane line"

Fortunately the Japanese advance slowed as their ability to resupply became stretched to the limit. I've just been reading about the island hopping "mopping up" campaign run by the Australian Army in the latter days of WWII and at that time most Japanese garrisons had been so completely cut off that the inhabitants were growing crops and in some cases resorting to cannibalism to survive. They were only fighting if attacked and really, if not for the personal political ambitions of some people in the Australian high command could have been left to "wither on the vine" thereby saving many Australian lives.

In response to the original post. Germany was never capable of defeating Russia. Japan or Germany could never have invaded mainland USA.
What the most likely situation would be is that Japan would have gone to war with Russia (as happened in the early part of the century, and had skirmishes with Russia on the Manchurian border during their pre war campaign, and also later in WWII)

The war would have gone on a lot longer, but I believe that Russia and America would have prevailed in the long term. The real question is, would Russia and America have gone to war? They very nearly did on numerous occasions post WWII. If they were the only powers, unfettered by alliances, would they actually have nuked each other into non existance?

cuts n bones: The German nuclear program was set back several years thanks to a daring commando raid that put most of their supply of heavy water onto the bottom of a Norwegian fjord. If not for that, they would have had the ability to produce nuclear weapons. Maybe not in quantity, but certainly well on the road to it.
 

BM Epic

Eats Squid
A fair bit off the original topic, i know, but....
I thought the the Germans were a fair way off the atomic bomb?
yes and no,heisenberg had learnt and discovered isotope seperation, as regards to the bomb itself, they got to about 40% efficiency with uranium, they only needed another 60% percent and they would have been able to sustain a chain reaction and they would have a bomb. the technology for uranium was already well understood, purifying to weapons grade was not.
all you need is around about 12kg's of u235 , seperate about 4kg's and fire it at the remaining 8kg's and you will have a uranium atom bomb, it's nearly that simple!
 

BM Epic

Eats Squid
If I remember correctly, Chamberlain actually realised what was going on but either had no choice or tried his best.

There is some famous quote that he made as he got off the plane in England after his deal with Hitler, can anybody help me out with what it was (I could google, but I need to go to the toilet....)

I embarrass myself with my lack of knowledge on this topic....
yeah johnny, that was the peace in our time speech, i have it on dvd, he had just given czheckslovakia to hitler! in exchange for peace, it only lasted 5 months!
 
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