Afghanistan, Do we stay or do we leave?

[Dozer]

It again, but wtf is IT????

To put it simply: The world would be better off without the shit stirring idiots who use their ridiculous beliefs as an excuse to hurt people that have more cool shit than they do and they are jealous and brainwashed. Get rid of them. Simple?

 

[thecat]

Did anyone know that opium horticulture in Afghanistan was at an all-time low under Taliban rule,

Conversely beheadings, stonings, burnings and general mutilations were right up there

The Taliban are on record for saying that hashish was banned as it was an intoxicant used by muslims. Opium on the other hand was fine to grow as it was only used by infidels in the west.

They drastically reduced production in the late 90s but it is said that was done to increase its price, and thus increase the income of Taliban supporting Afghan poppy farmers and thus the tax revenue they got out of it.

What right have we got to be there?

None but we went and messed things up royally. What right do we have to step away now?

Terror, come on, the US government are the worst violence mongers this century has seen.

Yeah but they moved away from overt, burning at the stake type terror in the early 1900s. Now they be subtle.

Lets leave them to sort their own way of life as they choose.

Under the rule of zealous factional war lords like the Taliban the majority of the country aren't able to "Sort their own way of life as they choose." That's one of the excuses of why we went in

They WERE lost in vain!

Tell that to the women in occupied areas that are free to get an education for the first time in generations

What is "it"????

I think you answered that when you said "Lets leave them to sort their own way of life as they choose". Until such time as the Afghani people are able to "choose their own way of life" (Whether that be a western styled democracy or something completely different) without being repressed by a minority extremist group we now, after invading in the first place, have an obligation to stay and help the Afghanis achieve just that.

I used to know an ex Vice Admiral of the Aussie navy who told me the whole thing was only about oil. But what would he know?????

Oil. Opium and the trans Afghan pipe line... Natural gas that is.

I have an older friend who said she backpacked through Afghanistan in her younger years and thought it was the most beautiful country she ever went to and on the whole the people were most welcoming and friendly.

The Soviets went in for various reasons, mostly as a powerplay to gain the upper hand over the USA in the region, but it should be noted they were originally asked to come in and supply military aid by the (Soviet backed) ruling party.

A lot has been said about the Soviets not being able to win in Afghanistan as though that set the precedent. But lets face it the USA, GB, China and a bunch of other states were doing everything in their power to make sure the Soviets lost that one.

Blinded by the need to get one up and eventually topple the USSR we stirred up the mujahideen into zealous gorilla fighters and encouraged the influx of foreign Muslim jihadists intent on destroying the communists and rising to power themselves.

No matter which way you look at it we (meaning USA, Brittan, Australia etc) played a big part in creating the mess we now find Afghanistan to be in.

So what right do we have to wash our hand of it and walk away from those Afghanis who are crying for our help?

Is this winnable?

I don't know, but sometimes the fight is worth fighting anyway.

 

[DH - racer]

i did an assignment on this...if everyone has a look at what russia did aswell, they were there for 10 years and what did they achieve?? not much but dead soliders....so they bailed and go outta there....its going to be one freking hard battle to win thats for sure....the tailiban are everywhere

 

[thecat]

i did an assignment on this...if everyone has a look at what russia did aswell, they were there for 10 years and what did they achieve?? not much but dead soliders....so they bailed and go outta there....its going to be one freking hard battle to win thats for sure....the tailiban are everywhere

As i said a lot of other thing were at play against the Soviets. Out of the estimated 45000 resistance fighters fighting against the Russians it's reckoned only 15000 were Afghani. Added to that USA, Brittan, China, Sudi, Iran and Pakistan were all supplying weapons and training against the Russians it's a wonder the held on for as long as they did.

Foreign fighters, weapons and money still play a big part in feeding the Taliban and their supporters but a large part of their wealth and assets have been frozen in the west and they have no where near the support they had in the USSR days.

If the Bushs administrations blind need to invade Iraq hadn't sidelined the efforts in Afghanistan the place would be a lot more stable and we'd be a hell of a lot closer to having a viable exit strategy that isn't "Screw you guys, we're going home."

 

[tc2233]

I was talking about this to the next door neighbour who is a soldier and has gone to Afganistan several times. We both agree that its not nice seeing young Australians dieing over in Afganistan but the reality is that if we pull out the Taliban is just going to be how it was before USA entered Afganistan but most likely worse because they are more likely wanting to get back at the USA.
The neighbour and I just think it is impossible to emiminate terrorism but we need to stay and keep on destroying Talibans weapons, facilities and to just keep distracting them to reduce the amount of taliban members.

 

[Bermshot]

Would the amount of money spent justify the pipeline if it is built?

In what context do you mean?

If you mean it as war funding then yes it will be justified to those who are going to profit enormously from it. Because WE pay for the war with our dollars and citizens. And if it is ever built we will pay exorbitant prices to buy said resources. So yes, for "them" it is not justified it's brilliant.

If you are asking me personally, then it is not any amount of money that I think is unjustified but the loss of even one life in the pursuit of untold riches thinly veiled as an exercise in morality.

Don't get me wrong I understand the dastardly deeds of the Taliban and if that were the true and only cause for being there then I would be 100% behind the effort, but as it stands I do not believe that is why we are there.

Conversely there are many countries that desperately need help but they are not Geo Strategic, have no resources or are complying nicely.

But hey while were on the moral high ground lets have a quick look at the Congo. 5 million in 15years! I won't go into specifics but the atrocities that did or still do happen there make the Taliban look like wayward adolescents. Yes the UN was there, but to what end? Why was there no great push for morality and dignity there, to purge the wrongs purely because it is right?

 

[woodyjbh]

Good to see a few intelligent arguements going on here. It's always interesting to see what people are thinking and the reasons behind their rambles. Why is it interesting?? Because i'm in the location your talking about, doing the job...

For those that aren't sure what the 'mission' is, google it. Its not hard to find. If you were really interested in finding out, you'd spend time doing that instead of being here posting. The main body is called "Mentoring Task Force -2/3". Have a guess at what our main aim is....

Also, alot of you will find that the politicians are talking about winding things down over the next 2 years so that we can withdraw. Which sorta makes the original question pointless. Because, we are coming home. Eventually.

Those casualties? Five of which were mates of my mates (and a previous partner). Another was sent home with a fractured spine last march and is still in rehab. In fact today is the one year anniversary of Snowy and Smitty's (and his dog's) deaths from IED detonation. I saw these men return, broken. And they are being forced to go back on tour next year. Even though they are still reliving the hell of their last deployment.

Uuumm.... No. No-one in the defence force is FORCED to go overseas. It doesnt matter who you are and what you do, there is always someone with similar qualifications that what happily take your place. If you didn't want to go on the deployment, you wouldn't. Its that simple. And thats before we even get into the arguement on free will and how we're all capable of making decisions for ourselves as long as we're prepared to accept the consequences of our choices. And the other arguement for people that are suffering with phycological issues from their previous deployment being deployed again. If they were doing the right thing and getting treatment, then deploying them again wouldnt even be a consideration....

 

[Lleyt0n]

Good to see a few intelligent arguements going on here. It's always interesting to see what people are thinking and the reasons behind their rambles. Why is it interesting?? Because i'm in the location your talking about, doing the job...

For those that aren't sure what the 'mission' is, google it. Its not hard to find. If you were really interested in finding out, you'd spend time doing that instead of being here posting. The main body is called "Mentoring Task Force -2/3". Have a guess at what our main aim is....

Also, alot of you will find that the politicians are talking about winding things down over the next 2 years so that we can withdraw. Which sorta makes the original question pointless. Because, we are coming home. Eventually.



Uuumm.... No. No-one in the defence force is FORCED to go overseas. It doesnt matter who you are and what you do, there is always someone with similar qualifications that what happily take your place. If you didn't want to go on the deployment, you wouldn't. Its that simple. And thats before we even get into the arguement on free will and how we're all capable of making decisions for ourselves as long as we're prepared to accept the consequences of our choices. And the other arguement for people that are suffering with phycological issues from their previous deployment being deployed again. If they were doing the right thing and getting treatment, then deploying them again wouldnt even be a consideration....

Im over here aswell, what is your job BTW?

 

[Bermshot]

Im over here aswell, what is your job BTW?

Did you guys know of a US shift in their leadership? General Allan taking over ISAF and Petraeus to head the CIA? An ARMY General in charge of complete National Security and Psy Ops?
Perhaps he's o'l school and old man Bush taught him everything..*shrug*

18 Jul 2011 Last updated at 11:52 ET

The US ubiquitous who has taken over as commander in chief in chief of ubiquitous forces in Afghanistan has warned of “tough days ahead” in the infantry campaign.

Addressing infantry during the handover rite in Kabul, Gen John Allen pronounced he had “no illusions about the hurdles you will face together”.

Insurgents have stepped up attacks upon infantry as well as comparison Afghan officials.

Gen Allen has taken over authority from Gen David Petraeus who is returning to the US to run the CIA.

A Marine. , <(mine)

•Graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1976, though went upon to serve degrees in inhabitant confidence as well as vital intelligence
•Served in the Caribbean, the Balkans as well as was deployed to Iraq in 2006
•Between 2008 as well as 2011 he was emissary commander in chief in chief of US Central Command
•Promoted to the arrange of four- star ubiquitous prior to long prior to presumption authority of infantry in Afghanistan

[News Portal]

Needs better editing I think, but for posterity's sake it suffers.