ALL MTN Racing ?????

[retro racer]

Hi all,

whats the thoughts on AM racing or events and its future in OZ?
Does it have a future? do we need to be patient and grow this new discipline?
Do all States need to be on the same page with rules etc?

 

[bikeyoulongtime]

Hi all,

whats the thoughts on AM racing or events and its future in OZ?
Does it have a future? do we need to be patient and grow this new discipline?
Do all States need to be on the same page with rules etc?

I'd be super keen to see it grow, especially in Vic. I'm curious about people expect to be an 'all mountain race', ie climb an XC track and descend a DH track? super hard? rocky steeps both up and down? hike-a-bikes? rolling BMX tracks with berms and a few jumps?

In my daydreams, I envisage an 'AM' race on the local trails here that includes a punishing 8k XC loop (anyone remember hard day at the office, or the 04/05 national series (i think) anyone?), a nasty fireroad climb to a ridgeline which has a compulsory 'bike on yer back' section, some fast rolling MX singletrack, then looping around for a bomb down an infamous-but-currently-neglected DH track. To me that's 'all mountain', and I would LOVE to see it happen

...but I figure it will take lots of work on the access and liability front. Plus, it might be a product nobody wants to buy?

keenness + patience seems appropriate...

 

[Stinky]

Hi all,

whats the thoughts on AM racing or events and its future in OZ?
Does it have a future? do we need to be patient and grow this new discipline?
Do all States need to be on the same page with rules etc?

The main stumbling blocks that I see (as an AM race promoter) is definition. (what constitutes an AM race?) I subscribe to the theroy that it is similar to the euro style of enduro racing with several timed downhill or traversing stages with untimed (but time limited) climbing stages in between. The second issue based on this is finding suitable venues. In SEQ there are only 2 that allow for this style of racing at the moment where there is at least 3 challenging tracks and at least 1 trail to climb to the top. On top of this the normal venue issues of a finish / pits area, parking, etc come into play.

I dont feel that the multiple run Super D format tha is being run in NSW works. As a promoter it seems to have most of the same complexity as running a DH race due to the need for shuttles. As a rider, I would probably be more inclined to spend the day on the DH bike if I am going to be sitting in shuttles. Having said that, I am yet to compete in one of the Rocky Trail events and do see the benefit of being accesbile to a wide market of riders than a DH event.

 

[moorey]

I'd love to see this get up. Vote 1 for the You Yangs as a venue. Similar loops to what is being run on some XC events (boulder/cressy/travs diamond decents).
The problem as i see it, is that everything there is do-able on a hardtail or light short travel duallie, so people would treat it as an XC race, bring their smuggler bike, and have a huge advantage on the climbs, where the bulk of the time is able to be made up, and limp down the decents.

What can be done about that?
Mandatory 5"+ bike? Hardly
No options around DH/AM lines that people can opt out of on XC's? Not feasible, or fair to less skilled riders/novices
Handicap lighter bikes? Not likely.
Run classes based on bike weight/travel, not rider skill or fitness? I'm screwed 3 ways to sunset
Make them so rocky and technical as to scare off weight weenies and roadies? Hmmmm...

Like i said, love the idea, but i see it as only an option for fun/social days, and who would want to pay to enter an event where they won't win a prize or stand on a podium...apart from me...

Please prove me wrong, someone.ray:

 

[crowash]

Yeah I reckon All Mountain should include climbs as well as descents. Whether the climbs are timed or not doesn't matter but I think using shuttles is not all mountain. Otherwise its just a DH event with some flat stuff

 

[MJS]

Having raced the entire NSW AM series so far, I'd say there is a definate potential for it to grow. However the main problem I see at the moment is lack of promotion of the series, resulting in small turnouts due to riders simply not knowing the event is on! I know it's early days, but you only need to look at the turnout for Rocky Trails rollercoaster series this year to see that the potential is there..

Enduro / Super D has absolutely taken off in Europe and the US, I see no reason why the same wouldn't happen here, we do have some fantastic legal trails here in NSW and I'm sure other states do too.

Well done to all the clubs involved in the NSW state AM series by the way, the races have been well organized and a lot of fun so far

 

[moorey]

Yeah I reckon All Mountain should include climbs as well as descents. Whether the climbs are timed or not doesn't matter but I think using shuttles is not all mountain. Otherwise its just a DH event with some flat stuff

It definitly needs to have climbs, tough ones if youre going to call it 'AM'. Screw shuttles too. Reward the guys who CAN ride up AND down, but as i said, I don't know how to get around the problem of making the climb section too easy to win it on, considering there could be seconds to gain on a fast decent on a bigger bike, but minutes to be gained on the climbs on an XC.

 

[andy]

You should have to ride to your next timed downhill stage. The distance can be considerable as long at the transit time is fair. This may allow some other venues to open up, where there is multiple peaks but flat or rolling terrain between them. I think the talk from the UCI is good in that there has to be a certain percent downhill gradient verses up. 80% down min, 20% up max in the timed stages. I know this is where me and Stinky haven't agreed as much. I don't see why we should cater to those with skill on an XC bike. Comparing the US to Europe this seems to be a problem. In the US the races are being won on 4 inch 29er XC bikes, in Europe they are on long, slack 5 inch bikes.

For those that mainly want to race XC there are already races, those that want DH there are already races. But there are a hell of a lot of sales in the 5 to 6 inch class of bikes that need a race suited to them. The % gradient and the attempt to make a least one of the tracks technical puts the 5 inch bike as an advantage over the XC bike. And the climbing or riding in transport stages put the 5 inch bike as an advantage over the DH rig.

 

[brad01]

Id love to see this discipline get up and going.

For me its got to be the mix of tough xc climbs, endurance and fast tech downhill, jumps, drops the whole 9 yards, it then becomes anyones game and would make for some awesome racing.

I also like the two race, one bike scenario like Downieville in the states, choose your bike and set up then run with it for two disciplines.

Would be happy to get involved to help make it happen.

 

[bikeyoulongtime]

It'd be great to hear more from AM race promoters (thanks for your thoughts Stinky) on this.. in my small brain:

No options around DH/AM lines that people can opt out of on XC's? Not feasible, or fair to less skilled riders/novices

well, its an AM race. its got to have hard trails! here, in order not to badly injure people it might pay to make b-lines really long, or perhaps walk-only? ie no scary drops but maybe highly visible logs and rocks that need to be climbed over?

Make them so rocky and technical as to scare off weight weenies and roadies? Hmmmm...

that would be one way of doing it

any statistical gurus around? could it be possible to make a combined overall race time based on weighted times for climbs, descents, and overall finish? I guess each section (up AND down) would have to have a cutoff to prevent exactly the things mentioned here. Or else, use some combo of overall time minus difference between cutoff and technical non-climbing sections (ie skills and speed on technical trails mean you lose time from your overall time?)

at the youies, it would only be fair to time descents... too much climbing advantage there...

also, how do you stop people jamming up the trail - on ups and downs? example I'm thinking of is rider X who is a gun climber decides to walk an A line to save time instead of taking a B line. Rider Y the gun descended then comes along having chased rider X down and has to hit the anchors and lose time.

anyways, I'm clearly procrastinating on a PhD and haven't been out riding enough... looking forward to seeing this discussion grow!!

 

[Ivan]

I would prefer to race the euro style, where the climbs/transport sections are untimed (but have a time limit) and the gravity sections are timed. I also think that this style of racing makes a lot of sense in Australia, as there aren't many lift assisted mountains, and we also don't have a lot of altitude.

I also think that naming the format "All Mountain" is confusing.

 

[moorey]

Au contraire, "enduro" is misleading for the format being discussed here, IMHO.
Maybe a new name like x-down, that reflects the combination of the 2 disciplines.

 

[Ivan]

Au contraire, "enduro" is misleading for the format being discussed here, IMHO.
Maybe a new name like x-down, that reflects the combination of the 2 disciplines.

I never suggested "Enduro". You did. It has been discussed at length elsewhere that "Gravity Enduro" helps to differentiate the euro style of Enduro from the long distance XC races which have been named Enduro outside of Europe. "Gravity Rally" is also an appropriate name, but I think that one is unlikely to catch on.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Beginners-Guide-to-Enduro-What-the-hell-is-it-2012.html

I am not aware of any Gravity Enduro events that have been held in NSW. I think I heard of one being run in QLD not long ago (or soon).

 

[Stinky]

I am not aware of any Gravity Enduro events that have been held in NSW. I think I heard of one being run in QLD not long ago (or soon).[/QUOTE]



Aug 5 and October 1 http://www.emsaustralia.net.au/news/6/83/EMSA-Hosting-The-Non-For-Profit-Gravity-Enduro-2012

 

[T-Rex]

Firstly, I'll get a plug in for our AM race being held at Ourimbah this Sunday. Not at Katandra like our web site says. Detailed post to come shortly.

On the subject of format, riders have overwhelmingly said they like the short format we currently run with shuttles and 30-40 % flat or climbing, and a majority of decending, on not too technical terrain. As one guy very succinctly put it, " I'm too unfit to race xc, and too scared to race DH".

On the euro style enduros, we don't have a venue big enough for one of these.

Another interesting observation is that we have been unable to come up with a format in which an AM bike is competitive, their weight punishes them on the climbs and the descents are not long or tech enough to make up the time. A 5" trail bike seems to be the best all around option.

 

[gravity]

I'm running an all-mountain style event on Saturday October 6, 2012. It's called the FLOW XCD (cross country descent). The website and more information is a work in progress but the basics can be found here- http://www.flowXCD.com
The course will be around a 3km descent of XC friendly singletrack trails from the top to the bottom of the Beechworth MTB Park (in North East Victoria, 30min south of Albury/Wodonga or 3 hours north of Melbourne). Happy to answer any queries about the event and this type of racing. There's another event running on the same day on a different course at the MTB Park called the Flow DH (Downhill). Those entering the Flow XCD event can get to watch the downhillers race the finals at night under a fully lit course ! Night DH racing. For those of you that have bikes suited to both XC and DH, you can even enter both events for the day. Plenty of time to practice both courses if you're up for it.
Cheers, Paul

 

[moorey]

I never suggested "Enduro". You did.

sorry, no, wrong person.

 

[No Skid Marks]

Bike weigh in. Heavier the bike the more time gets deducted. How you work out the deduction I don't know.
I dig the rally format with time limit transports sections.
I think gnarly rock garden shortcuts and obstacles like logs etc are the key to encourage more travel bikes. I think jumps and drops too, rollable ones, but ones that'll sap your momentum, maybe gutter high logs on the inside face of down ramps..
Thredbo should be having an All MTN/Enduro/... event this year on the new B track. Not sure if it'll be as many runs you can do on the B Track, or a loop of the XC track thrown in too, to be completed at any time during the day. Details are far from set, as half the Thredbo crew are in Whistler at present.

 

[nathanm]

Interesting discussion.

Our state series has had declining numbers for the past few years to the point now, where we aren't far away from no longer having a series.

To combat that we're now heading towards a "Gravity Cup" as opposed to a DH series.

Main changes will be introducing new courses to the series. Of six rounds 1 will be utilising a XC course descent, 4 will be progresively more difficult but still ht/short travel friendly and the last a balls to the wall Nationals track. Best 5 of 6 results will count.

The other change will be the introduction of a AM category for riders of hardtail and am/trail bikes.

The idea is that we need to introduce new blood to the sport. We think that the courses have become old and stale and the previously regular competitors now prefer to ride mountains trails with their mates, instead of racing.

So by introducting/modifying courses that can be ridden by anyone and catering specifically for the most rapid growing segment, trail/am (6" max bikes) we can grow competitor numbers which in turn attracts sponsors and so on.

Is going to be interesting to see the outcomes.

 

[brad01]

I'm running an all-mountain style event on Saturday October 6, 2012. It's called the FLOW XCD (cross country descent). The website and more information is a work in progress but the basics can be found here- http://www.flowXCD.com
The course will be around a 3km descent of XC friendly singletrack trails from the top to the bottom of the Beechworth MTB Park (in North East Victoria, 30min south of Albury/Wodonga or 3 hours north of Melbourne). Happy to answer any queries about the event and this type of racing. There's another event running on the same day on a different course at the MTB Park called the Flow DH (Downhill). Those entering the Flow XCD event can get to watch the downhillers race the finals at night under a fully lit course ! Night DH racing. For those of you that have bikes suited to both XC and DH, you can even enter both events for the day. Plenty of time to practice both courses if you're up for it.
Cheers, Paul

Ill be racing both of these, awesome idea Paul.