Bit of help needed from the Nutrition Guru's :)

[spiderpig]

Ive got a race coming up, it will run for approx 4.5 hours... its on a moto by the way, but i do ride mtb's alot and i know you blokes know alot more about nutrition than 99% of moto riders!
So i will have a camelbak on for the whole race, I'm able to change this at every fuel stop if needed. My stops during the race are planned to be at the 40 min mark (after the start loop and 1 lap), then approx every 1:15min (2 laps). I have a very small amount of time (20-30 sec) at each fuel stop to take on some food, but only small things that i can get in while wearing a full face helmet... and not throw back up
It is very difficult to find food out of a small pocket and eat it on a moto at race pace like you can on a mtb, hence why the camelbak comes in handy as a fuel source... but i also need to be able to use it to keep up quite a bit of fluid intake for hydration.
I think the 4.5 hour time frame matches up quite nicely to what the gun mtb riders do some 100k enduro's in. What would you guys recommend for some good ideas for energy intake/sources and correct timing to stay away from that nasty energy brick wall? Pre-ride and during....

:Banane35:

 

[Trickymac]

take a gel/gu at 1.5 hr and 3hr mark and youll be gold
or if you wanted take one at 1hr, 2hr and 3 hr mark and youll still be gold

 

[spiderpig]

take a gel/gu at 1.5 hr and 3hr mark and youll be gold
or if you wanted take one at 1hr, 2hr and 3 hr mark and youll still be gold

I did the Gel thing in this race last year, but i stopped every lap (about every 40min). It certainly helped, but the time between stops will be doubling this year and I'm looking to do a bit more than just gels and take on some more calories if possible. Maybe mix it up with some small snickers bars, extra go juice in the camelbak etc?? Disolve some gels into my camelbak?

 

[Cúl-Báire]

Alot of the Endurance Racing guys over on MTBR.com sware by Hammer Perpetuem (http://www.hammernutrition.com.au/shop/nutrition/perpetuem/)
I can't say I have tried it myself, but it looks to be fairly high in cal's when compared to say just Poweraide / Sataminaid Powder in the Camelback; it's also meant to be pretty easy on the stomach.

This combined with the odd Powerbar and you'd be right I reckon.

 

[disappearin]

Alot of the Endurance Racing guys over on MTBR.com sware by Hammer Perpetuem (http://www.hammernutrition.com.au/shop/nutrition/perpetuem/)
I can't say I have tried it myself, but it looks to be fairly high in cal's when compared to say just Poweraide / Sataminaid Powder in the Camelback; it's also meant to be pretty easy on the stomach.

This combined with the odd Powerbar and you'd be right I reckon.

I've used perpetuem as part of my nutrition for shorter enduro races up to solo 24hr races. It works well but I find I need something solid in my stomach every couple of hours or I feel a bit off. I like to eat a jam sandwich, banana or an energy bar in between the gels and perpetuem to keep me going.

 

[Antsonline]

I have a mate who does this sort of thing in the UK. He came up with a novel approach....get a big camelbak 'rucksak' but within it, run two smaller bladders, with hoses over different shoulder. I think he runs a big 3L rucksack, and 2x1.5L bladders.

In one (lets say this one has the tube over your left shoulder) you have a food source fluid - like the Perpetuum / Optimiser style (you can also find some good cheap stuff in Chemist Warehouse - 'Ensure' - its used for sick patients that cant stomach solids)
In the other (this one runs over your right shoulder, you use just for a hydration source (any electrolyte beverage). That way you can dose and drink everything you like without stopping.
Just remember which side is which!

 

[pistonbroke]

Perpetuem is a good product but I think it's a bit chalky for camelbac use. It also has quite a slow stable release of energy which I think make it ideal for longer 6+ hour races. You also need to consider electrolytes to help prevent cramps.
I have just started using Science in Sport's Go Electrolyte powder. It's a carbohydrate energy drink with electrolytes. I don't find it sickly sweet after 6 hours like some others I have used. I get mine from Chain Reaction Cycles in the UK. Iv'e had no problems getting it through customs. They inspected the first shipment without issue.
I would mix this with gels from a gel flask as they are quicker and easier to use.
If you feel the need for solid foods you can try sangers of your choice and bananas are magic for racing anything. A can of coke is also quite popular at enduro races in the last hour or so, but I always forget about mine.
Have you considered your caffeine intake? I have been trying to cut out caffeine from my diet except for at races. A lot of sports drinks and gels now contain it, and I find it useful to increase alertness and it also helps your body absorb and use more energy from the carbs you consume.

 

[Y8sy]

I make up a simple recipe that seems to work for me consisting of maltodextrin (brew enhancer, corn starch), staminade powder, salt and water. The maltodextrin can be bought from the home brew shop (an odd place for something to do with fitness) for about $5 for 500 grams - each gram is approx 4 calories, therefore 2000 calories per bag which goes a long way to fuelling for an endurance race that is relatively light in weight.

Mix;
- 1 gram of maltodextrin per kg of body weight (75kg, 75g of maltodextrin)
- 1 scoop of staminade
- 1/2 teaspoon of salt
- 1.5 cups of boiled water

- Shake the shite out of it to dissolve the powders in a large drink bottle around 800ml (boiling water and the camelbak may not agree...)
- Fill the remainder of the bottle with cool water, allow to cool and drink when ready

I drink one of these per hour of riding, so effectively I can take in 300 (4 calories per gram x 75 grams of maltodextrin) calories per hour and remain hydrated and fed.
Have one before a race as well.

 

[spiderpig]

Alot of the Endurance Racing guys over on MTBR.com sware by Hammer Perpetuem (http://www.hammernutrition.com.au/shop/nutrition/perpetuem/)
I can't say I have tried it myself, but it looks to be fairly high in cal's when compared to say just Poweraide / Sataminaid Powder in the Camelback; it's also meant to be pretty easy on the stomach.

This combined with the odd Powerbar and you'd be right I reckon.

I've used perpetuem as part of my nutrition for shorter enduro races up to solo 24hr races. It works well but I find I need something solid in my stomach every couple of hours or I feel a bit off. I like to eat a jam sandwich, banana or an energy bar in between the gels and perpetuem to keep me going.

The Hammer Perpetuem looks similar to the Endura Optimizer stuff i use a bit, maybe better? Ive found the optimizer works quite well for pre, during and recovery, but it can be hard on the stomach taking on a full does while exercising and i have found i need some solids aswell every now and then, like some bread with honey etc. Don't think the optimizer would go too well in the camelbak and looks like after reading the Perpetuem info its not recommended either. Might be something i can work on taking at the fuel stops, combined with a little 1/4 of sandwich or a small snickers bar...

 

[spiderpig]

I have a mate who does this sort of thing in the UK. He came up with a novel approach....get a big camelbak 'rucksak' but within it, run two smaller bladders, with hoses over different shoulder. I think he runs a big 3L rucksack, and 2x1.5L bladders.

In one (lets say this one has the tube over your left shoulder) you have a food source fluid - like the Perpetuum / Optimiser style (you can also find some good cheap stuff in Chemist Warehouse - 'Ensure' - its used for sick patients that cant stomach solids)
In the other (this one runs over your right shoulder, you use just for a hydration source (any electrolyte beverage). That way you can dose and drink everything you like without stopping.
Just remember which side is which!

Have heard of that before, its a great idea and would work really well on long races where no stops were possible i reckon.... I would really like to keep my camelbak to a smaller 2l one if i can, as i have 2 of them and can swap them over quickly at fuel stops.

 

[spiderpig]

Perpetuem is a good product but I think it's a bit chalky for camelbac use. It also has quite a slow stable release of energy which I think make it ideal for longer 6+ hour races. You also need to consider electrolytes to help prevent cramps.
I have just started using Science in Sport's Go Electrolyte powder. It's a carbohydrate energy drink with electrolytes. I don't find it sickly sweet after 6 hours like some others I have used. I get mine from Chain Reaction Cycles in the UK. Iv'e had no problems getting it through customs. They inspected the first shipment without issue.
I would mix this with gels from a gel flask as they are quicker and easier to use.
If you feel the need for solid foods you can try sangers of your choice and bananas are magic for racing anything. A can of coke is also quite popular at enduro races in the last hour or so, but I always forget about mine.
Have you considered your caffeine intake? I have been trying to cut out caffeine from my diet except for at races. A lot of sports drinks and gels now contain it, and I find it useful to increase alertness and it also helps your body absorb and use more energy from the carbs you consume.

Yes cramps are a big thing for me, mainly in my hamstrings.... it hit me hard at about the 3hr mark last year, to the point where i had to get off the bike and stretch them out a couple of times I used Endura Rehydrate in my camlebak last year, I'm thinking of combining some additional salt tablets with it this year, not sure if that will help? I guess the tricky thing with the camelbak as the hydration and one of the energy sources is consuming enough "fluid" to stay hydrated and getting enough calories and other supplements at the same time.

Seems the Endura Re-hydrate I use is quite similar to the Science in Sports product you are using.

I have been thinking about caffeine, the only normal intake i get during exercise is from the Endura Gels i take. But i have thought if I don't use Gels as much this year or if i use Gels without caffeine i might take some caffeine tablets at various stages during the race if that could help?

I make up a simple recipe that seems to work for me consisting of maltodextrin (brew enhancer, corn starch), staminade powder, salt and water. The maltodextrin can be bought from the home brew shop (an odd place for something to do with fitness) for about $5 for 500 grams - each gram is approx 4 calories, therefore 2000 calories per bag which goes a long way to fuelling for an endurance race that is relatively light in weight.

Mix;
- 1 gram of maltodextrin per kg of body weight (75kg, 75g of maltodextrin)
- 1 scoop of staminade
- 1/2 teaspoon of salt
- 1.5 cups of boiled water

- Shake the shite out of it to dissolve the powders in a large drink bottle around 800ml (boiling water and the camelbak may not agree...)
- Fill the remainder of the bottle with cool water, allow to cool and drink when ready

I drink one of these per hour of riding, so effectively I can take in 300 (4 calories per gram x 75 grams of maltodextrin) calories per hour and remain hydrated and fed.
Have one before a race as well.

That sounds like a good mix, how does it compare or do you prefer it to some of the pre-made type powders/sport drinks? (Endura re-hydrate etc)

Just saw this product on chain reaction, http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=31230

Seems the original flavour is 100% multodextrin - must be alright that stuff

 

[pharmaboy]

Have you ever monitored heart rate and fluid loss while on a moto before?

My expectation is that you wouldn't run out of fuel on a moto, but more suffer from muscle fatigue. You should easily bet abler to go for 4 hours with little or no nutrition at an average heart rate 20 bpm under threshold, because you are mainly burning fat stores not glycogen ..

I can ride for 4 hours at 70% and not bonk, but I bonk riding at 95% for 2 hours. I suspect you can get away with an endura mix in your camelback, 3l and get through the whole ride. Muscle cramps etc are still a risk, but will be caused by muscle overuse as opposed to dehydration.

Obviously this depends a lot on the effective temperature, as to whether you need more fluid than that.

 

[spiderpig]

Have you ever monitored heart rate and fluid loss while on a moto before?

My expectation is that you wouldn't run out of fuel on a moto, but more suffer from muscle fatigue. You should easily bet abler to go for 4 hours with little or no nutrition at an average heart rate 20 bpm under threshold, because you are mainly burning fat stores not glycogen ..

I can ride for 4 hours at 70% and not bonk, but I bonk riding at 95% for 2 hours. I suspect you can get away with an endura mix in your camelback, 3l and get through the whole ride. Muscle cramps etc are still a risk, but will be caused by muscle overuse as opposed to dehydration.

Obviously this depends a lot on the effective temperature, as to whether you need more fluid than that.

I haven't monitored my HR for a longtime on the bike, a few mates of mine have though, I do while training on Rowing machines etc though. Muscle fatigue is certainly a big factor and it definately comes into play in these longer races. Your expectation about running out of fuel might be correct for alot of moto rides where you might ride around 70% MHR, but this particular race is brutal. Its a desert race that runs for about 4.5 hours round a 38k track, so about 7-8 laps of the track in that time. It is pretty much 100% sand and after the first lap with 300+ bikes going over it every lap it gets blown to pieces, crazy rough with massive whoops (big rolling mounds, mogul type things) developing on the majority of the track. So its pretty much like a 4+ hour MX race. Its pretty much the hardest race a moto rider can do. I suspect my HR is atleast in the 85% range for most of the race with bursts well above that.

Cramping due to muscle overuse is prob more the factor like you say rather than dehydration, my hammy's seem to cop it the worst. I am a "sweater" though and find i need my fluids...

 

[fergo]

I use perpetuem but super concentrate it. I put 8 scoops in a 500ml bottle and fill with water. I then drink it 2 mouthfulls at a time and wash it down with water from my camelbak. Add in the occasional gel and I'm set for 4-6 hours.

 

[pharmaboy]

I haven't monitored my HR for a longtime on the bike, a few mates of mine have though, I do while training on Rowing machines etc though. Muscle fatigue is certainly a big factor and it definately comes into play in these longer races. Your expectation about running out of fuel might be correct for alot of moto rides where you might ride around 70% MHR, but this particular race is brutal. Its a desert race that runs for about 4.5 hours round a 38k track, so about 7-8 laps of the track in that time. It is pretty much 100% sand and after the first lap with 300+ bikes going over it every lap it gets blown to pieces, crazy rough with massive whoops (big rolling mounds, mogul type things) developing on the majority of the track. So its pretty much like a 4+ hour MX race. Its pretty much the hardest race a moto rider can do. I suspect my HR is atleast in the 85% range for most of the race with bursts well above that.

Cramping due to muscle overuse is prob more the factor like you say rather than dehydration, my hammy's seem to cop it the worst. I am a "sweater" though and find i need my fluids...

So maybe , think about in terms of breathing rates, that very laboured breathing on a long Mtb climb where you are following someone fitter than you is around threshold - think race pace. That's around 70% glycogen use and is where ou run out of energy at 90 minutes..

Sweating from being hot( under all that protection) will use the same electrolytes as sweating from exertion ( like you can sweat like a bastard at 15c if you are going hard on an Mtb), but use totally different amounts of stored glycogen.

I,m thinking I'd just use endura mix in your camelback and cover both scenarios .

 

[Y8sy]

Yes cramps are a big thing for me, mainly in my hamstrings.... it hit me hard at about the 3hr mark last year, to the point where i had to get off the bike and stretch them out a couple of times I used Endura Rehydrate in my camlebak last year, I'm thinking of combining some additional salt tablets with it this year, not sure if that will help? I guess the tricky thing with the camelbak as the hydration and one of the energy sources is consuming enough "fluid" to stay hydrated and getting enough calories and other supplements at the same time.

Seems the Endura Re-hydrate I use is quite similar to the Science in Sports product you are using.

I have been thinking about caffeine, the only normal intake i get during exercise is from the Endura Gels i take. But i have thought if I don't use Gels as much this year or if i use Gels without caffeine i might take some caffeine tablets at various stages during the race if that could help?



That sounds like a good mix, how does it compare or do you prefer it to some of the pre-made type powders/sport drinks? (Endura re-hydrate etc)

Just saw this product on chain reaction, http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=31230

Seems the original flavour is 100% multodextrin - must be alright that stuff

I've used endura before also, this is a cheap, home made version ($5 for the maltodextrin as opposed to approx $40 for the endura) of it. Probably a bit sweeter than endura, but you can tweak the mixture to suit.

The ordinary sports drinks are more about re-hydration as opposed to giving you a bit of sustained enregy, hence the reason for adding the maltodextrin.

 

[spiderpig]

I've used endura before also, this is a cheap, home made version ($5 for the maltodextrin as opposed to approx $40 for the endura) of it. Probably a bit sweeter than endura, but you can tweak the mixture to suit.

The ordinary sports drinks are more about re-hydration as opposed to giving you a bit of sustained enregy, hence the reason for adding the maltodextrin.

Yes i like the endura for its rehydration, certainly helps keep the cramps at bay.... but wasn't enough last year, they still set in about the 3 hour mark in my hammy's. But that was prob alot to do with muscle fatigue and over exertion too. Was thinking of taking some salt tablets this year to see if that helps. Will buy some maltodextrin and trial some different combos.

Will trial some stronger mixes of Endura optimizer in a bottle with a wide straw/tube to see if i can suck a decent dose down with the helmet on. Otherwise might have to stick with some other options like squares of sandwich, small snikers bars and some gels.

 

[BG26]

Have you ever monitored heart rate and fluid loss while on a moto before?

My expectation is that you wouldn't run out of fuel on a moto, but more suffer from muscle fatigue. You should easily bet abler to go for 4 hours with little or no nutrition at an average heart rate 20 bpm under threshold, because you are mainly burning fat stores not glycogen ..

I can ride for 4 hours at 70% and not bonk, but I bonk riding at 95% for 2 hours. I suspect you can get away with an endura mix in your camelback, 3l and get through the whole ride. Muscle cramps etc are still a risk, but will be caused by muscle overuse as opposed to dehydration.

Obviously this depends a lot on the effective temperature, as to whether you need more fluid than that.

I Have competed in this race many times and can tell you if you rode it at 70% pace you would get lapped 5 times! You are pushing 90% everywhere and just hanging on for dear life along whooped out top gear straights. I get the impression from your view you may not have a clue as to the intensity of "RACING" a Moto for 4 hours in the sand. If you tried to race it with little to no nutrition I can garantee you would DNF.

Anyways Spider how did you go in the big race this year?