Budget?

red death

Likes Bikes
I wonder how Kevvy Rudd's mates in the CFMEU are feeling right now?

I can imagine all these miners earning 150k with overtime feeling really overjoyed :p

Muppets.
You just don't get it do you.:confused: Now I can't speak for all those miners currently on $150k or whatever, but the bulk of the real unionists I deal with daily on wages well above non organised competitors are happy to share the wealth with those less well off.

Howard's regime actively worked to increase the gap between rich and poor, left leaning politics seeks the opposite. Of course in this democratic Australia you're entitled to believe the rich should get richer and stuff everyone else, and I suspect you'll not really ever understand, but life really is not a game won by he who dies with the most sticks.

Anyway you should be happy, using your logic you must now be convinced Rudd's not in the unions' pockets. Can't have it both ways. ;)
 

MasterOfReality

After forever
You just don't get it do you.:confused: Now I can't speak for all those miners currently on $150k or whatever, but the bulk of the real unionists I deal with daily on wages well above non organised competitors are happy to share the wealth with those less well off.

Howard's regime actively worked to increase the gap between rich and poor, left leaning politics seeks the opposite. Of course in this democratic Australia you're entitled to believe the rich should get richer and stuff everyone else, and I suspect you'll not really ever understand, but life really is not a game won by he who dies with the most sticks.

Anyway you should be happy, using your logic you must now be convinced Rudd's not in the unions' pockets. Can't have it both ways. ;)
No, I get it all right.

You are kidding yourself if you think real unionists are happy to share the wealth.

Plenty of unionists I know who have the me me me attitude. Not everyone lives a warm fuzzy socialist world. I once asked a unionist at the university whom I overheard talking about his rental properties whether he rents them out at discount rates for battlers. Gee, seems he was quite happy with capitalism.

Its champagne socialism at its best.

What irks me about this government is they are actively initiating jealousy.

And people reckon Howard was a master at wedge politics :confused:

For the record, I think the Budget wasn't too controversial, pretty much basically the same as the last couple, but with a few tweaks. Just give it time before they cast their greedy eyes on those who have the audacity to do well for themselves.
 
Last edited:

J@se

Breezeway Bandit
You just don't get it do you.:confused: Now I can't speak for all those miners currently on $150k or whatever, but the bulk of the real unionists I deal with daily on wages well above non organised competitors are happy to share the wealth with those less well off.

What a load of shite, maybe those Union bosses getting fat off union revenues should share a little of their six figure salaries out with the Hoi poloi then eh?
Fuck I dislike socialist hypocrisy.
 
Last edited:

scblack

Leucocholic
You just don't get it do you.:confused: Now I can't speak for all those miners currently on $150k or whatever, but the bulk of the real unionists I deal with daily on wages well above non organised competitors are happy to share the wealth with those less well off.
What dribble.:rolleyes:

How many unionised plumbers/chippies etc do you know who do NOT do cash jobs?
If they are HAPPY to share the wealth, why are they effectively "stealing" from their mates by evading tax? They should be paying the tax to allow it to be shared around - thats your argument - how come in reality is it not the case?


I would also be EXTREMELY interested to know what industry/trade you are talking about where a unionised person earns more than a non-unionised person? Please name me one.
 
Last edited:

brisneyland

Likes Dirt
I would also be EXTREMELY interested to know what industry/trade you are talking about where a unionised person earns more than a non-unionised person? Please name me one.
Anyone in a menial service industry, retail, hospitality... it happens. A lot.
 

Garrath

Likes Dirt
Back on topic boys, I think this thread is about the budget NOT a joyous little discussion about unions.

The Budget cant be too bad if one of the oppositions big gripe is the increased tax on alcopops.
 

scblack

Leucocholic
Ross Gittins feels it was a pretty weak budget too:

Rudd and Swan fudged paltry spending cuts
Ross Gittins
SMH
May 19, 2008



The more closely you study last week's budget the less impressive it is. Despite all the chest-beating and issuing of dire warnings, the spending cuts Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swan managed to produce were not so much weak as pathetic.
A government's first budget is the only chance it gets throughout its life to make savage spending cuts with political impunity. The huge real growth in spending over the Howard government's last five years mean there must have been oodles of fat to cut.
And yet, after all the noise they made, all the expectations they raised, our fearless Labor duo wimped it. Why? I suspect they intended to cut hard but, once they saw the extent of the revenue windfall from the latest leap in commodity prices, they decided they didn't have to bother.
If you think this judgment harsh, let me demonstrate how weak their attack on wasteful spending was. There's less than meets the eye, in that the quality of the cuts they did make was poor.
Mr Swan keeps boasting that "every single cent of new spending for the coming year has been more than met by savings elsewhere in the budget". But this is a highly misleading statement.
For a start, it ignores the cost to revenue of the tax cuts to take effect in July, which will be about $11 billion for the financial year. (This is possible because - the tax cuts having been purloined from the Liberals - their cost was incorporated into the budget's "forward estimates" on Peter Costello's watch.)
Mr Swan's boast is that he has come up with savings worth $7.3 billion in the coming financial year, whereas his new spending totals only $5.3 billion. That's true, but the $7.3 billion in "savings" includes $1.9 billion in tax increases.
The tax measures involve the increased excise on alcopops, the increased luxury-car tax, removal of the exemption from oil excise for Woodside's petrol condensate, tightening of the fringe benefits tax and an increase in the airport passenger tax.
So Mr Swan's total spending cuts only just cover the cost of his new spending, and only in the first year. In the following year they fall well short of covering it.
In which case, how did Mr Swan manage to come up with a budget surplus for the coming year as high as his target of at least 1.5 per cent of gross domestic product, without relying on the $3 billion increase in expected tax collections since the previous estimate was made during the election campaign?
By falling back on no less than $2.4 billion in non-tax "parameter and other variations" since the election. This is mainly a big increase in the dividend received from the Reserve Bank.

The point is that, given the assist from tax increases and changes in non-tax parameters, Mr Swan was able to achieve his 1.5 per cent target without bothering to cut spending by more than needed to just cover his new spending plans.
That's how hard these guys tried. What's more, the target they set themselves - 1.5 per cent of GDP - was never going to be a stretch. The budget outcome hasn't fallen below 1.5 per cent for the past four years.
Believing their rhetoric, I had assumed the emphasis in their target of at least 1.5 per cent was on "at least". In fact, they got above 1.5 per cent only by means of the $3 billion upward revision in their estimate of tax receipts. With that assist they got to 1.8 per cent of GDP - hardly a stratospheric figure. That's how hard they tried.
When you look through the list of their spending cuts you find a few big ones but thousands of rats and mice. They got a lot of their savings through their imposition of a 2 per cent efficiency dividend on government departments, their decisions not to proceed with the Howard government's Access Card and to cancel the Libs' Opel contract for rolling out broadband (while not yet having any cost to include for the contract that will replace it).
Now get this: their spending cuts have been pumped up to look good in 2008-09, but fall back sharply in the following years.
Next financial year, tax increases account for a quarter of their total "savings" of $7.3 billion. By three years later, however, the tax increases account for almost half the total savings. The tax increases grow while the spending cuts contract.
In the budget papers' list of their savings measures, spending cuts too minor to list separately total $2.4 billion, or almost half their total spending cuts. By the following year, however, the $2.4 billion has collapsed to just $800 million.
Why? Because so many of the cuts are once-only measures. Consider this list, starting with a once-only "special dividend" from Australia Post of $150 million. (This is a non-tax revenue measure, not a spending cut, but even so it was a decision of the razor gang.)
They save $100 million in the budget year by deferring to the following year a measure to align the pay-as-you-go instalments of certain firms.
The decision to raise the Medicare levy surcharge's thresholds will save $230 million in the budget year in reduced health insurance rebate, but the $200 million cost of lost surcharge payments doesn't hit until the following year.

In Defence, they'll make a once-off saving of $370 million in the budget year because of a decision to establish an operations reserve. They'll save $190 million in the budget year because of "provisioning for future defence requirements", but this will increase their costs in subsequent years.
They'll save $300 million in the budget year by reallocating funding of the Higher Education Endowment Fund to the following year. They'll save $50 million in the budget year by pushing into the following year spending on starting an inland rail corridor.
They'll make a one-off saving of $290 million in the budget year by recovering from the states' overpayment of compensation for small businesses' GST payment arrangements.
Then there are other indications that savings will diminish in subsequent years. Estimates of the net saving to the budget from raising the thresholds on the Medicare levy surcharge allow for people giving up their private insurance, but don't allow for the subsequent cost to the budget when the health funds raise their premiums to compensate.
More significantly, the budget should have included the increased cost to the feds arising from renegotiation of the five-year hospital agreement and other funding agreements with the states. But these deals have been delayed for a year as part of the revamp of federal-state relations - which won't be cheap.
Finally there's the supposed $400 million-a-year saving from imposition of a special 2 per cent "efficiency dividend" on government departments. This would have to be the laziest, most inefficient and ineffective way to try to cut spending in the politicians' handbook.
You don't identify inefficiencies yourself, but pass the buck to department heads, each of whom swears there are no inefficiencies to cut. The almost inevitable result is that they either try to screw you politically by cutting high-profile services (for example, the Bureau of Statistics' plan to cut surveys and sample sizes) or they stop replacing junior clerical staff, so highly paid staff have to do their own photocopying.
Labor ministers say their media strategy is to under-promise and then over-deliver. From the viewpoint of punters fearing nastiness, that's what they did with the budget.
From the viewpoint of people seeking to judge Labor's performance as an economic manager, however, they did the opposite - which can hardly be smart.
Ross Gittins is the Herald's Economics Editor.
http://business.smh.com.au/rudd-and...20080518-2fla.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap3
 

nizai

Likes Dirt
Gotta say, means testing the Solar Rebate is a silly idea too. Its not like the rebate was considered middle class welfare like other payments that Howard had introduced.

Im sure families on 100k per year still cant afford the full cost of a solar power system, and considering the scheme's relatively low subscription rate anyway, I fail to see how the new measure makes any significant savings. Plus it actively discourages above average earners from adopting renewable energy.

N
 

Nerf Herder

Wheel size expert
You just don't get it do you.:confused: Now I can't speak for all those miners currently on $150k or whatever, but the bulk of the real unionists I deal with daily on wages well above non organised competitors are happy to share the wealth with those less well off.
We're entering the new Utopian age of universal sharing.

Sorry i wasnt really clear there, should have said "Whats wrong with that?"... Considering only a smaller part of the community is "well off" he seems to be shooting himself in the foot there.
If you are paid or rewarded by the amount of time you put in and get paid a higher rate for longer hours then, its a disincentive for you to work longer hours once you get nearer to the $150K bracket. ... further, since OT is somewhat filling the skills shortages, then I'd argue that this could increase wages pressure, as workers try to offset any loss in disposable income. Anywhere other than Utopia that is.

For me I'm pissed with this budget ... it cuts into almost everything that I was promised by an incoming Labour government, where I thought, my kids would be supported ... $750p.a for high school education ... fark, I'm looking at 20-30k p.a per kid (in today's dollars) ... my taxes have just increased - so my disposable income is shot given I've also just lost all the child support the previous govt promised, and my wife isn't earning at her full capacity ... my health care costs which have already increased several fold will increase exponentially again for an unknown period of time ... my potential shuttle wagon / family car is going to get hit ... when prices just started getting reasonable after introducing that other tax called GST.

Can't see how they're helping me cope with increased food / petrol and god knows what prices ... all it needed was to introduce a tax on bikes over $500 and it would have been killer.
 

red death

Likes Bikes
Could it be the budget will have a negative effect for individuals earning over $100K PA or families on over $150K PA, but not so for the rest of us?! :rolleyes::eek: space:)

Can't understand the solar rebate stuff though. :confused: Now though it might well be that the solar rebate has been accessed in exponential proportion increasing with income, the rebate has the effect of encouraging an industry which ought to be encouraged. Even if it were only the rich who'd patronise the product, the circumstances support the rebate. space We used to be the worlds best in solar technology. Someone's been asleep here and they're still not awake yet...
 

scooter

Likes Bikes
For me I'm pissed with this budget ... it cuts into almost everything that I was promised by an incoming Labour government, where I thought, my kids would be supported ... $750p.a for high school education ... fark, I'm looking at 20-30k p.a per kid (in today's dollars)
Why does it cost 20-30k per kid? Surely school uniforms and a few textbooks don't cost that much?
 

scblack

Leucocholic
Could it be the budget will have a negative effect for individuals earning over $100K PA or families on over $150K PA, but not so for the rest of us?! :rolleyes::eek: space:)

Can't understand ...
So the budget's gaping hole created by the people exiting private health insurance will not affect ALL taxpayer's huh? All taxpayers will have to foot that bill - forgot that fact did you?

So the families on less than $150k but wish to retain private cover for their family will not be affected by people leaving the private industry? All families who keep private cover will be worse off - didn't think about that one did you?

Do not forget that EVERY taxpayer over the $100k and $150k brackets will receive income tax cuts which will likely pay for the changes in cost of private health cover. Forgot that one did you?

It is a dumb, uncosted, and UNBUDGETED policy.

red death said:
Can't understand.......
No, it seems there is a number of things you don't understand.:rolleyes::eek:space:)



And I have to say this, the way you make that statement absolutely REEKS of jealousy. It is not a good look.
 

Nerf Herder

Wheel size expert
Why does it cost 20-30k per kid? Surely school uniforms and a few textbooks don't cost that much?
read: private school fees, extra curricular activities ... girls schools are slightly cheaper (17K to 22K). My understand is that $750 won't even cover school uniforms (high school private). happy to be corrected.
 
Last edited:

red death

Likes Bikes
So the budget's gaping hole created by the people exiting private health insurance will not affect ALL taxpayer's huh? All taxpayers will have to foot that bill - forgot that fact did you? So the families on less than $150k but wish to retain private cover for their family will not be affected by people leaving the private industry? All families who keep private cover will be worse off - didn't think about that one did you?
See post #4. There will necessarily be a cost involved in favouring a system which caters to all at level X over a system which caters to those who can afford it at level X+ and others who cannot at level X-.

...Do not forget that EVERY taxpayer over the $100k and $150k brackets will receive income tax cuts which will likely pay for the changes in cost of private health cover...
Well that's pretty obvious isn't it. The discussion here both pre the election and since seems fairly agreed the tax cuts are over the top. Rudd promised 'em because the view at the time was it'd be political suicide to have done otherwise. Whether it would have been better to have reneged on his promise is another argument. I think that on balance keeping the promise was better. Trust in govt is sorely needed in Australia.

No, it seems there is a number of things you don't understand....
yeah sorry I'm trying to learn here, but you confuse me sometimes ;)

...It is a dumb, uncosted, and UNBUDGETED policy....
...Overall this is not a bad budget...
 

scblack

Leucocholic
Overall this is not a bad budget, but they screwed around wih a couple of things wrongly, in my opinion.
Red death, note the first word there - Overall.

I think it a pretty fair comment to make that this would essentially be a budget that Howard/Costello would have given us (largely). Except the dicking around with Medicare levy, FBT on laptops and solar panels it would be little different. The income tax cuts were Howards and other than the above mentioned they changed very little.

Thus the budget OVERALL is not bad, a surplus still and no shock to the system.

The Medicare surcharge is a SINGLE policy within the budget framework, and is in my opinion pretty stupid, as it is uncosted and unbudgeted. It is dicking around with a policy that took some pressure of the public hospital system. Now that pressure will be released again, there is NOTHING provided to compensate, which you yourself said was required in post #4.

I am commenting negatively on a single policy. That does not mean I deride the overall budget impact.

I shall leave the negative budget commentary to Ross Gittins - he picked more holes in that budget than I possibly could have.
 

nizai

Likes Dirt
sc,

Agree with most of the things youve said, plus I think the medicare levy changes were a bit silly.

BUT! Theres a big but here, I dont think its impact will truly be known for some time yet. Despite the numbers the government and insurance companies are throwing around, im not sure how much negative impact it will have on the public health system.

(also interesting to note that the insurance companies initial numbers on those who would leave private cover was initially LOWER than the governments figures. Only after the budget came out did the insurance association come out with the magically round number of 1 million people).

My reasoning behind not knowing the level of impact is as follows. Im probably a good example to use. At 29 i got private cover to avoid paying the levy, I am now 31 years old. The other day I used my private cover for the first time ever to buy a new supply of contact lenses that I had previously been purchasing from the states. After 2 years in private cover, my impact on the public health system has been ZERO.

People under 30 are the ones most likley to drop their cover this coming financial year, mainly because once you hit 30 it makes sense to stay in the private system to maintain your premium discount.

SO... to sum up. The majority of the people leaving private cover due to the governments adjusted levy threshold are most likley going to be 25-30 year olds who's impact on the public health system is relatively low to begin with.

Of course there will be less revenue going into insurance companies and therefore other peoples premiums may rise, but a large negative effect on the public system seems unlikley.

I could be well and truly wrong at the end of the day, but as I said, I think everyones clutching at some straws here trying to predict the outcome.

Surely they should have sensibly adjusted the levy upward some 25% instead of 100%. At least then you would have a gauge of what would happen on a much smaller scale.

N
 

scblack

Leucocholic
BUT! Theres a big but here, I dont think its impact will truly be known for some time yet. Despite the numbers the government and insurance companies are throwing around, im not sure how much negative impact it will have on the public health system.
Largely agree with you Nizai BUT, there's a big BUT from me here too:

Rudd and Swan have not given any numbers/costings on the impact to the health system, the private insurers or the general budget picture. That makes it obvious they went headlong into this policy without a CLUE what impact it would have on any of these factors. As Gittins says, facts like this do not give any confidence in Labor's ability as economic managers.

I'd also like to make this point then:
Rudd/Swan have been touting EVERYTHING they do as for the benefit of "working families". The huge majority of working families are comprised of parents in their 30's. Thus if, as you suggest this policy largely benefits those under 30, then they have completely missed the boat and their policy is not able to target their working families constituents.
 
Last edited:

red death

Likes Bikes
...Rudd/Swan have been touting EVERYTHING they do as for the benefit of "working families". The huge majority of working families are comprised of parents in their 30's. Thus if, as you suggest this policy largely benefits those under 30, then they have completely missed the boat and their policy is not able to target their working families constituents.
Yeah he's not quite right there I agree. Reducing the private system and correspondingly extending the public system will benefit all Australians not just working families.;) I think something had to be done to reverse the plunge into a US type system the previous govt was leading us to. Not that I'm sure that's where Rudd's going....... hope so though :)
 

Graunched

Likes Dirt
We're entering the new Utopian age of universal sharing.

If you are paid or rewarded by the amount of time you put in and get paid a higher rate for longer hours then, its a disincentive for you to work longer hours once you get nearer to the $150K bracket. ... further, since OT is somewhat filling the skills shortages, then I'd argue that this could increase wages pressure, as workers try to offset any loss in disposable income. Anywhere other than Utopia that is.
So basically what you are saying is f*ck the people at the bottom of the pile? I am not the sole provider of income for a family of four, bringing home a measly 30k a year but i know a few people who are and to say the least its tough. On top of the quality of life not being what it should be they have no chance of getting ahead. By getting ahead i mean, paying off a house, acquiring assets etc etc.

People with a larger disposable income have a much greater chance to get ahead and seriously, if they are earning close to 150k and not taking steps to offset the amount of tax that they are paying by negative gearing etc i am wondering how they were intelligent enough in the first place to land a job that pays that much.

Personally i don't think that OT is an issue. Less people work it = more demand for people in that workforce = wages rise = people do less work for more money = quality of life improves. Win win situation in my eyes..........


Can't see how they're helping me cope with increased food / petrol and god knows what prices ... all it needed was to introduce a tax on bikes over $500 and it would have been killer.
Umm maybe not forking out an exorbitant amount each annum to the tune of 20-30k for each child's education would go quite a long way towards easing that pain.
 

gravelclimber

Likes Dirt
Though I'm a supporter of most of what is in the budget, the dropping of the Commercial Ready scheme was unexpected and devastating for a lot of Australian innovation.

Basically, the scheme granted government money to fund early stage innovation to get through proof-of-concept and through to commercialisation. The idea was to invent very high value intellectual property here in Oz and keep all the profits here instead of oversees. So the government wasn't just funding crap, the company had to have matching funding from another source (i.e. venture capitalist, business angel etc).

Now the scheme is gone and our little company is in a world of shit. Thing is, if we are successful in what we are developing, there could have been many millions or potentially billions of revenue coming into the country. Now its either find venture capital here (unlikely), venture capital oversees (much more likely) or fold (a distinct possibility too).

I'm sure many other companies like ours are now in the same situation.

Such is life I guess.
 
Top