Australia
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Care to enlighten us a little on that? Please.
Building Aerobic Fitness
- Thread starter adaib
- Start date
I reckon so too. Sounds like you've got a) some talent and, b) some ambition. For the record, I have neither.
Have a chat to Fenz: . If nothing else, he'll improve your core strength by keeping you laughing (Disclaimer: I've only ridden with him, not been coached). All-round top bloke.
Another option is Carl Brewer - possibly more road focused, but a similarly decent guy. And pretty close to you too.
jathanas
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Unfortunately, that's only partially correct.
The levels of core muscle activation during seated pedalling, are not adequate for super compensation. Further to my point, at 40 years of age and over, if all you do is cycling, your years are numbered. My definition of core includes the lower back, and hip flexors BTW.
Each to theirs I guess. I know that until I added core strength sessions (not sit-ups) to my training regime I suffered back problems.
Core endurance can be defined as coping efficiently with a certain load over time. Can you guess how strengthening the core helps with that? BTW, squats are very 1990s, I do kettlebells.
Lovin' our chat.
Cheers, J
@ Australia the reason why sit ups are not an ideal "core workout" is that they focus on the rectus abdominus. Their primary use is for flexing the lumbar spine. This is not an action which has any real relevance to cycling (very relevant to squats and deadlifts ) The erector spinae is a far more important group to focus on. If you want the non cycling or non weight option the back raises and plank option will suffice.
@ Mal01 I would also recommend those two coaches or Alex Simmons at RST.
@ Jathanus how much stimuli and relevant compensation do you require for the task at hand? The principals of specificity rarely need to be compensated for. And kettle balls are something which I am not overly familiar with, but I have seen them done very badly... but then the number of people I see squating in runners or not going deep etc...
Another issue on the postural side of things is bike fit. Sometimes people DO lack core strength but is because there are demands being made of the core musculature which shouldn't be made. This can often be traced to an incorrect fit.
) The erector spinae is a far more important group to focus on. If you want the non cycling or non weight option the back raises and plank option will suffice. @ Mal01 I would also recommend those two coaches or Alex Simmons at RST.
@ Jathanus how much stimuli and relevant compensation do you require for the task at hand? The principals of specificity rarely need to be compensated for. And kettle balls are something which I am not overly familiar with, but I have seen them done very badly... but then the number of people I see squating in runners or not going deep etc...
Another issue on the postural side of things is bike fit. Sometimes people DO lack core strength but is because there are demands being made of the core musculature which shouldn't be made. This can often be traced to an incorrect fit.
spikenet
Likes Dirt
Not only that reason, but situps/crunches are damaging to the spine!@ Australia the reason why sit ups are not an ideal "core workout" is that they focus on the rectus abdominus. Their primary use is for flexing the lumbar spine. This is not an action which has any real relevance to cycling (very relevant to squats and deadlifts
http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-human-condition/2009/06/03/stop-doing-sit-ups-why-crunches-don-t-work.html
Any modern program based on functional training will use planks, rows and other core-activating exercises and not the traditional crunch.
The increase in popularity of the kettlebell and movements like "the swing" and "the get-up" are related to this functional training philosophy. You can certainly do the same movements with dumbbells.
Back to original topic, I think its pretty clear that there is no "rubber-stamp" weekly program that will help you achieve your goals. You being a young fella, I would say your wasting your time doing so much strength work after your base phase of training. As already suggested you need to develop a sustainable program to build and peak for your target races then build on those over the course of a number of years.
Joe Friel pretty much covered your question on his blog yesterday; http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/04/qa-measuring-aerobic-endurance-progress.html
Last edited:
Most people already have an excellent six (or eight) pack. Problem is the layer of fat over them. You could do a thousand crunches and still have the mono-ab.
Hell, even druggies have a 6 pack and I don't think their big on the whole workout thing.
So if you want a six pack drop the situps, and drop the spoon too.
Hell, even druggies have a 6 pack and I don't think their big on the whole workout thing.
So if you want a six pack drop the situps, and drop the spoon too.
-iRideBikes-
Likes Bikes
Core Training for MTB's
Hey guys if your interested in core strength training for mtb's check this link out:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/mtb-strength-training-core-training-1-2010.html
Super informative, super helpful. Given that he's training the likes of Aaron Gwin it'd be safe to assume he actually knows what he's talking about. As quoted from the link:
"James Wilson is the owner of MTB Strength Training Systems, the world’s only company dedicated to developing strength and conditioning programs for the unique demands of mountain biking. He has helped hundreds of mountain bikers around the world ride faster and longer and his current clients include US National DH Champ Aaron Gwin and the Yeti/ Fox Racing Shox Factory Team."
Hey guys if your interested in core strength training for mtb's check this link out:
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/mtb-strength-training-core-training-1-2010.html
Super informative, super helpful. Given that he's training the likes of Aaron Gwin it'd be safe to assume he actually knows what he's talking about
. As quoted from the link:"James Wilson is the owner of MTB Strength Training Systems, the world’s only company dedicated to developing strength and conditioning programs for the unique demands of mountain biking. He has helped hundreds of mountain bikers around the world ride faster and longer and his current clients include US National DH Champ Aaron Gwin and the Yeti/ Fox Racing Shox Factory Team."
spikenet
Likes Dirt
Yeah James has brought alot of Mike Boyle, Eric Cressey and Grey Cook's functional training philosophy and applied it to MTB riders.Super informative, super helpful. Given that he's training the likes of Aaron Gwin it'd be safe to assume he actually knows what he's talking about
I used his DB Combo plan for about 1 year, works as advertised but I got bored of it and now follow the GSP Rushfit system.. I know, he's an MMA guy but his trainer, Eric Owings is from the same functional training school as these other guru's. Its very time effective and at least its more interesting to follow then a self-guided program
Yep, some athletes will improve inspite of their training, not because of it.
If you read some of the comments below that particular article people question exactly how and why these things work... and answers are left wanting. DH IS different to XC and there are significantly different demands but to date, beyond anecdotal evidence, no one has proven that anything beats specificity in terms of improving performance.
But given we are not pros I do recommend things like weight training, holistic health n all that jazz.
If you read some of the comments below that particular article people question exactly how and why these things work... and answers are left wanting. DH IS different to XC and there are significantly different demands but to date, beyond anecdotal evidence, no one has proven that anything beats specificity in terms of improving performance.
But given we are not pros I do recommend things like weight training, holistic health n all that jazz.
spikenet
Likes Dirt
true to a certain extent, for things like flexability, core+leg strength there are definately better ways to train them then on the bike.
Also agree that for some lucky individuals they will improve regardless, this includes beginners who can make the huge gains from pretty much doing "anything".
Its the keen riders who are getting out onto the "thin edge of the wedge" where just riding the bike isnt enough..
Although im not the original poster to whom your question is directed at.
Doing sit ups is only one type of exercise you can do for your core (also its nowhere near the best) and no way works your entire core.
People have the misconception that core means abs and obliques but these are only minimal areas involved in core strength. There are much much deeper muscles that we dont see in and around the obliques, abs, stomach and back. Our core extends around to our back and includes that whole area, the most well known muscle on our back that is involved in core is lats. Core to me involves anything that connects the upper body (chest/shoulders etc) to the lower body(legs) anything inbetween this area and anything that joins onto these areas is part of our core. When trainning these muscles it is hard at times to work all of them at the gym and other training styles may need to be incorporated.
Personally I would replace sit ups with the Captain's Chair Exercise I believe it doesnt stress the neck or the back and it is said to be much more effective in training the abs.
M2C
*This is just from everything on the net and my love for fitness and health im not qualified in this area.*
Last edited:
jathanas
Likes Bikes and Dirt
There's no research linking functional resistance training to improved lap times so there's no hard scientific data. Big deal...
That completely ignores the potential damage that long hours in the saddle can do to one's spinal erectors (inactive for long periods) and hip flexors (always tight).
Strength training is like servicing the body (engine) so that it can perform the required work (cycling) efficiently.
There's no doubt that you have to ride heaps to get fast, but high profile cycling coaches like Friels and Carmichael advocate strength training.
That completely ignores the potential damage that long hours in the saddle can do to one's spinal erectors (inactive for long periods) and hip flexors (always tight).
Strength training is like servicing the body (engine) so that it can perform the required work (cycling) efficiently.
There's no doubt that you have to ride heaps to get fast, but high profile cycling coaches like Friels and Carmichael advocate strength training.
-iRideBikes-
Likes Bikes
Yeah my thoughts exactly. The core exercises in the link I posted would take 20/30min. Compare the workout your core would get doing these exercises to say, adding another 20 min to your ride time and its pretty clear which one will prove more effective.
And Tapeworm you raised the point of the questions left unanswered in some of the comments below the article... he did answer them... several times
Potential damage, indeed. This is documented? Or just anecdotal?
Friel and Carmichael, two coaches whom regularly have their training doctrine mocked as being rather antiquated and have had to play catch up with more modern (and successful) approaches. Good at selling lots of books and DVDs though.
No, he didn't. Example:
Question:
"It's true that the lower back should be trained to stabalise. That's the problem with sit ups: they require flexion (bending) of the lower back, something which your lower back doesnt need to do while doing sports (hence there's no reason to train it to do that). It also stretches out the ligaments which hold the spine together, another reason to ditch exercises like the traditional sit up. However post a 'how do I get in shape?' thread in the PB fitness section and a lot of people will still probably tell you to do 500 sit ups a day. It's good that PB is offering some real training advice. However in riding, supplimentary training is far less important that in other sports. Those who ride the best are often those who spend the most time on a bike.
Answer:
mtbstrengthcoach (Apr 12, 2010 at 8:34)
Why is supplementary training far less important than in other sports? Even golfer recognize the need to get in the gym and train and our sport is far more physically demanding. At one time basketball, baseball, hockey and golf all had the "get better at your sport by playing your sport" mindset. Since they realized that was not true the level of play seen in those sports has increased dramatically.
Time on the bike is important but the "we just need to ride more" mindset is holding our sport back. There are things you need on the trail that you don't use enough on the trail to get stronger. That is the essence of real training. "
No-where in that explanation did he explain exactly how this pertains to cycling in any way, shape or form. Only that it has worked for some other sports (note: the cited examples are ball, ball/stick related, all of which require explosive/dynamic actions). The relative forces in cycling are oh-so-low, so why do we need to compensate?
And the kicker - "Time on the bike is important but the "we just need to ride more" mindset is holding our sport back." Oh so funny.
Is there any, ANY, proof that doing core exercises have improved cycling performance? Lots of anecdotes, lots of stories, lots of "I felt so much stronger" but no evidence. The plural of anecdote is not data.
Yep it's very clear. Hint: its the one involving the pedals.
jathanas
Likes Bikes and Dirt
You mock others for lacking data yet provide little yourself. Whatever.
Stand tall in the face of adversity.
Signing out of this thread.
Stand tall in the face of adversity.
Signing out of this thread.
Ah the lack of evidence is evidence itself?
Ask and ye shall receive. If you can ind some articles which prove the core strength improves aerobic exercise then I would like to read them.
http://www.insidemoves.org/articles/Myth_of_Core_Stability_PPA.pdf
http://www.pnfchi.com/fotos/literatura/1233837313.pdf
Ask and ye shall receive. If you can ind some articles which prove the core strength improves aerobic exercise then I would like to read them.
http://www.insidemoves.org/articles/Myth_of_Core_Stability_PPA.pdf
http://www.pnfchi.com/fotos/literatura/1233837313.pdf
A lack of evidence is only evidence if someone has actually done the related studies.
The first paper you've linked there seems to be concerned only with abdominal muscles, which doesn't seem to be what people here mean when they refer to core muscles.
The second paper seems a bit more relevant - it does show that an increase in core stability does not improve running performance. The authors mention though that this might only be relevant to the sample population (which was 18 15-year-old athletes), or that the particular exercises they chose might not be the right ones.
What I do to help build core strength based on zero scientific evidence or research is whilst punching out time on a fluid trainer, I do upper body weights work with free weights (simple arm curls with dumbells mostly) whilst I am riding. What I find is that because you are pedalling, you dont really have a stable platform for your upper body strength work and your "core" is working hard to keep you stable anchored only by the saddle.
Again no scientific evidence to back it up, not measured data for results, but to me I definitely feel it has increased my core strength.