Cadence basics?

[adaib]

Hi
i just got a new HR montor/speedo/bike computer thingy for my birthday. Its freaking awesome!
One of the functions is a cadence measure.
i was wondering if anyone can teach me some basic cadence stuff, like ranges and what they mean so i can use it intelligently. I do race often, so it would be useful to understand it.

 

[driftking]

So you ready know the basic cadence and RPM is the number of rotations per minute.
Generally each person will have a preferred cadence. I'm not 100% sure how they find the ideal cadence however I would assume it will require a power meter or a perceived exertion measure over a particular distance.
A general basic rule is to start with a cadence of 90.
The reason for this is, at this timing on average most people put out the best power to effort ratio, therefore this is the most "economical" cadence.
Some people may find they are below or above this I have heard any between 80-110 with some riders.

 

[harmonix1234]

I have recently been lucky enough to spend some quality time with one of fenners NSW team time trialists and I have learned one thing about cadence.

If you can sit on about 100-115 bpm when training it conditions the body to flush lactic acid more efficiently.

The theory being that the faster your blood is flowing, the more lactic acid it can flush out of the muscles.

The problem: The faster you spin the more lactic acid you build. So, you have to teach your body this and it can take a while for it to become conditioned.
And gear choice is essential. Start with a gear you know you can keep a good spin.
You may not feel like you are going very fast, but speed is not the game here. The aim is to teach your muscles how to handle a high rhythm so when it comes time you can put more power down, more efficiently, for longer. Time trial style.

This guy has been racing for 22 years, and is a sponsored optus/torque racer so I'm just taking his word for it.

 

[Mobywan]

If you can sit on about 100-115 bpm when training it conditions the body to flush lactic acid more efficiently.

Is that bpm or rpm? Assuming it was a typo?

 

[cramhobart]

So rate of blood flow is determined by leg speed? Regardless of load?

 

[nickdos]

Is that bpm or rpm? Assuming it was a typo?

'Think he was talking (heart) beats per minute - OP mentioned his gadget also had HRM.

 

[adaib]

The problem: The faster you spin the more lactic acid you build. So, you have to teach your body this and it can take a while for it to become conditioned.
And gear choice is essential. Start with a gear you know you can keep a good spin.
You may not feel like you are going very fast, but speed is not the game here. The aim is to teach your muscles how to handle a high rhythm so when it comes time you can put more power down, more efficiently, for longer. Time trial style.

I don't get it...

So when you train, you want to spin your legs at a sustainable speed, (somewhere between 80 and 110rpm) and that rate is determined by HR. And then this allows you to have very little lactic acid in your legs, so when you need it, you can put the power down for longer cos you won't fatigue as fast due to having less lactic to start with?

 

[harmonix1234]

Is that bpm or rpm? Assuming it was a typo?

Sorry, it's the muso in me.
I'm used to using a digital sequencer for my drum beats and it's all measured as BPM (Beats Per Minute), so my brain defaults to that acronym.

I stand corrected, it is RPM.

 

[harmonix1234]

So rate of blood flow is determined by leg speed? Regardless of load?

Blood flow is not solely determined by leg speed, but by how hard the heart determines it has to work to continue to supply oxygen.

I should have written 'the more blood that circulates, the better the body flushes lactic acid from muscles' rather than 'the FASTER the blood circulates'.

If you spin your legs fast you body will carry a larger volume of blood through the cardio system and muscles than if you sit in a big slow gear plodding along. Apparently. As I said, this is only based on the words of a quite successful athlete running on Fenners training program.

Just watch a stage of the TDF and try and sit on your spin bike and keep cadence with them while you watch. Especially on the non mountain stages. Their cadence is usually quite high.

 

[harmonix1234]

I don't get it...

So when you train, you want to spin your legs at a sustainable speed, (somewhere between 80 and 110rpm) and that rate is determined by HR. And then this allows you to have very little lactic acid in your legs, so when you need it, you can put the power down for longer cos you won't fatigue as fast due to having less lactic to start with?

Yeah, but without getting heart rate confused in the mix. Separate thing all together. I am purely talking about cadence of the legs.

My mate says that the fast cadence training then allows him to sit on a TT bike, in a big gear, and mash away super hard for long periods of time because the legs don't lactate as quickly, and flush the acid more efficiently.
He wouldn't be able to do this sustained big gear runching if it wasn't for the high cadence training.

He also says it gives him the freedom to make attacks more frequently, and attack hills more efficiently because his body is used to the high cadence, all he has to do is choose his moment and pick the right gear and sit on 100-110 rpm and his legs go into auto pilot and take him up the climb or past the other rider.

I wish I could elaborate more, but this is all I know about it sorry.
Any questions post them up and I'll pick his brain tomorrow and let you know.

 

[Emmett]

As the others have said try and keep your cadence up high. On the road bike I keep it at around 100. In the hills it will drop and when sprinting/HIT it tends to go a little higher.

According to Chris Carmichael your cardio system is more efficient than your legs up to a certain point. That point is usually a bit higher than what people will naturally spin at e.g. my 'natural' cadence is around 75-80 on the road. Chris suggests trying to ride around 110 or so.

The basic principal is to get your heart and lungs to do more work and your legs to do less. Feels strange at first but works for me. More importantly it works for plenty of pro cyclists who have far greater power output and less weight than I do

 

[adaib]

Right... I'm getting somewhere now

So high cadence training will allow my body to deal with lactate faster in an emergency situation? Eg, a hill or to attack an opponent.
And it will also increase your "power", the ability to maintain a high power out put for a while like on a TT bike, as the volume of blood going to your legs will have increased due to the high cadence training?

And here start the new questions...

How does all this cadence training on the road/TT bike help a mtber? as their cadence is varying all over the shot when in single track.
Their power output of a mtber also varies due to obstacles and pinch climbs ect. Do the power benefits of cadence training on a roadie come into play when mtbing, i the ability to 'push' harder on the pedals and get over tricky pinch climbs and step ups ect?
How would you use cadence in a mtb RACE situation? Lets look look at XCO format for the moment. Obviously in a road race, you could maintain a high cadence saving yourself for a sprint in the end? But how does it apply to mtb race, as the cadence and power is all over the place?

Thankyou

 

[m2o2r2g2]

Right... I'm getting somewhere now

So high cadence training will allow my body to deal with lactate faster in an emergency situation? Eg, a hill or to attack an opponent.
And it will also increase your "power", the ability to maintain a high power out put for a while like on a TT bike, as the volume of blood going to your legs will have increased due to the high cadence training?

And here start the new questions...

How does all this cadence training on the road/TT bike help a mtber? as their cadence is varying all over the shot when in single track.
Their power output of a mtber also varies due to obstacles and pinch climbs ect. Do the power benefits of cadence training on a roadie come into play when mtbing, i the ability to 'push' harder on the pedals and get over tricky pinch climbs and step ups ect?
How would you use cadence in a mtb RACE situation? Lets look look at XCO format for the moment. Obviously in a road race, you could maintain a high cadence saving yourself for a sprint in the end? But how does it apply to mtb race, as the cadence and power is all over the place?

Thankyou

I have a few other insights that might help you out here.

Background: I am olympic athlete (coincidentally posting this to keep my mind off the world champs final tomorrow!) that uses cycling as cross training, so I am interested in how the body reacts to different training.

Firstly, and this is true of most activities, if you do a movement at with less effort and more often, you transfer the training load away from the muscles and into the cardio system more. This is known as central loading as opposed to peripheral loading. If you want to see another example jog up a steep hill and take small quick steps, and repeat trying to leap up in big strides.

Lactate happens when your muscles do not get enough oxygen to fuel your power output, in other words when you dont get enough blood flow (or lungs cant provide enough oxygen into this blood). Central loading will have the heart rate up for the same amount of work, but can be maintained for as long as your heart rate stays around the same area (heart rate drift - another topic) and blood sugars stay up. Peripheral loading will compound (ie once muscles are a little tired, the next effort will result in bigger cost, eventually you blow up!)

When you centrally load you stress your heart more. Like other muscles this will make your heart bigger and the walls thicker. This means that for each beat of your heart it can send more blood to your muscles, allowing higher power for the same heart rate/ lactate level. This is the basic principle that underlies all aerobic training, trying to make your heart stronger. So high cadence sessions will definitely have benefit for MTB. It will allow you to do the same effort for longer.

Conversely working at low cadence will put your muscles under strain for longer each pedal stroke. Time under strain is what increases strength. So ultra low cadence max effort is what will allow you to pull in the bigger gear. But this will generate high levels of lactate and fatigue muscles, so cannot be done for long periods effectively (do short intervals).

So to get faster overall you probably want to do both (on separate training sessions).

Other points to note:
Muscles are very specific in regards to training. If you train to move at one speed, you will get better moving faster or slower as well but not by much. If you want to be effective moving your legs (actual leg speed not bike speed) at say 20kmph then you dont want to spend all your time moving them at 10 or at 30.

Now applying this to MTB racing:
If you fatigue your central system, it will recover (at the speed your heart rate drops). If you fatigue your legs, they will take much much longer to regenerate.
MTB racing (whatever form) is a series of efforts (and recoveries during corners/descents). You want first and last efforts to be powerful (to enable nailing a climb / clearing a step up etc), so you want to keep the load more central (ie choosing a lighter gear at every stage eg vary cadence from 80-120 instead of 60-100).

Hopefully this has answered those questions (and raised yet more).

 

[thecat]

And here start the new questions...

How does all this cadence training on the road/TT bike help a mtber? as their cadence is varying all over the shot when in single track.

Think of it this way. Pushing a big gear at low cadence is like doing slow bicep curls with a big weight. It will build muscle mass but wont do anything for endurance or tone. You'll be able do more curls for longer with a small weight.

Pushing a big gear leads to quicker muscle fatigue. Dropping it down a gear or two and spinning quicker (Up to a point) gets you the same speed without the fatigue and once you are use to it lets to do that speed for longer. Once you get the endurance you can then work at building strength so you can spin the next gear up at the same cadence and thus go quicker again.

 

[IIITAK3NIII]

Some awesome info is coming into this thread.

So ideally we should train endurance before we train strength?

 

[adaib]

Central loading will have the heart rate up for the same amount of work, but can be maintained for as long as your heart rate stays around the same area (heart rate drift - another topic) and blood sugars stay up. Peripheral loading will compound (ie once muscles are a little tired, the next effort will result in bigger cost, eventually you blow up!)

When you centrally load you stress your heart more. Like other muscles this will make your heart bigger and the walls thicker. This means that for each beat of your heart it can send more blood to your muscles, allowing higher power for the same heart rate/ lactate level. This is the basic principle that underlies all aerobic training, trying to make your heart stronger. So high cadence sessions will definitely have benefit for MTB. It will allow you to do the same effort for longer.

So to get faster overall you probably want to do both (on separate training sessions).

Other points to note:
Muscles are very specific in regards to training. If you train to move at one speed, you will get better moving faster or slower as well but not by much. If you want to be effective moving your legs (actual leg speed not bike speed) at say 20kmph then you dont want to spend all your time moving them at 10 or at 30.

Now applying this to MTB racing:
If you fatigue your central system, it will recover (at the speed your heart rate drops). If you fatigue your legs, they will take much much longer to regenerate.
MTB racing (whatever form) is a series of efforts (and recoveries during corners/descents). You want first and last efforts to be powerful (to enable nailing a climb / clearing a step up etc), so you want to keep the load more central (ie choosing a lighter gear at every stage eg vary cadence from 80-120 instead of 60-100).

Wow, that's a great post.... You pretty much nailed it for me.

But I still have a few more

When you say:
-"Central loading will have the heart rate up for the same amount of work, but can be maintained for as long as your heart rate stays around the same area" are you suggesting that I should keep the high cadence of 100 or whatever, and try and maintain the same heart rate as well. For example, I could do it on the trainer with a set resistance, and hold 168bpm and 100rpm?
-"This means that for each beat of your heart it can send more blood to your muscles, allowing higher power for the same heart rate/ lactate level" the effects of cadence training will allow me to hold a set power output (speed on the flat) with less fatigue to my legs? Or particularly on the mtb, have more power in my legs to really push me up a climb faster? Or am I getting this confused with muscle strength caused my low cadence/resistance training?
-"So to get faster overall you probably want to do both (on separate training sessions)" in what ratio would you suggest for optimal benefits?

And some more general questions:

-How long would you expect adaptations to occur due to cadence training? I am aware that for aerobic training benefits from scratch it takes 6 to 8 weeks, however I'm already pretty fit, so I would assume it would take less time?
-Would you suggest cadence is more important during training rather than mtb racing? Or would you suggest when racing, I would maintain a higher cadence (and theoretically the same speed) throughout the race to reduce fatigue?
- I am a 19yr old male athlete and I do alright in State level A grade races. What would you suggest the best cadence (or cadence range) would be for me if I was central loading and if i was peripherally loading?

 

[adaib]

Also...

Congrats in getting to the Olympics. What sport?
I hope you do well in the world champs tomorrow?

 

[driftking]

It regards to training ratio it will vary with what what percentage of each system you use during a race.
Taking in cycling, using a non specific dissapline as a example.The body uses multiply energy pathways to provide needed ATP. For example if your sport derives 70% of its ATP from anaerobic pathways and 30% from aerobic then a appropriate training prgram should be divided in a 30:70 manner while focusing on weekness's withing your training.
The training ratio can then change depending on pre, off and race season and your own personal needs and goals.

Than been said this is a broad statement, ex. during anaerobic training you have training at lactate threshold and you also have sprinting (V02 max/maximul oxygen uptake), before someone says V02 max is a measure of training and not a zone, although this is true V02 max training is still named so as it is aimed at increasing your maximal oxygen uptake.

 

[thecat]

Some awesome info is coming into this thread.

So ideally we should train endurance before we train strength?

Yeah. rule of thumb is you do most of your training at low intensity to teach the muscles how to work efficiently before stressing them to build strength and power.

m2o2r2g2 will have a better idea but the way I read it you should first get a good base fitness to get the heart and lungs up to speed. Then start going some endurance adding bits of strength work as you go. Strength is the hardest to get and quickest to fade so as an event gets closer up ramp up the short hard work outs while still getting atleast one long easy one a week. speed is another thing again then. I remeber a mate once said to me "you don't get faster by running marathons every day. short sprint session will make you faster so long as you have the endurance to sustain them and the strength to drive them."

1 or 2 weeks before the event tapper right off to short easier stuff.

And remember recovery days are every bit as important and train days. Think of your body as a car if you drive it on the red line all day every day it will get slower not faster. To make it faster you need to get it in the work shop for a bit of love and tweaking not to mention putting fuel in.

 

[driftking]

And remember recovery days are every bit as important and train days. Think of your body as a car if you drive it on the red line all day every day it will get slower not faster. To make it faster you need to get it in the work shop for a bit of love and tweaking not to mention putting fuel in.

A great point, over training can be easy to do, even if you dont feel tired or sore the day after your body is still recovering so stick to your training schedule.
I like to use the analogy of muscle building in general (not really an analogy), you dont build muscle in the gym you destroy the muscle so it builds stronger during recovery. Recovery is when your body is adapting and getting stronger and the same applys for endurance and cardio training. This also leads onto the importance of diet. If you put the wrong fuel in your car it aint going to go anywhere. Make sure your body is getting premium fuel, it not only means you can workout effectively/harder but ensures that your body is fueled to gain the most out of recovery. Dont look at recovery as down time look at it as a time when your getting stronger. (injuries are another thing)

recovery is training
eating is training