Can America be fixed?

[Tubbsy]

Once they are of legal age for a cat A license they can actually own a 10 shot AR-15 and store it at home and currently on cat A it doesn't even have to be registered.

I would bet my house that if a kid in New Zealand shot up a school with an AR-15 the Kiwis would ban that shit within months.

If people were serious about stemming the deaths firearms cause it would seem to be logical to target gang warfare and help out disadvantaged communities where the majority of firearm deaths occur but I don't see people caring about the plethora of gun deaths in poor communities which really rubs me up the wrong away as it even comes off as racist to me that many of people up in arms the way they are now never seemed to bat an eyelid at all the poor people dying to firearms ?

The thread started about school shootings, and has obviously morphed into the bigger picture relating to guns. Not really racist to be largely addressing the topic at hand.

But obiovusly there is massive racial inequality in the US, and as I mentioned twice before, we don't need to fix one thing at a time. How about we get on with addressing the lot at once?

 

[Skydome]

I would bet my house that if a kid in New Zealand shot up a school with an AR-15 the Kiwis would ban that shit within months.

Not likely to happen to though.

Not really racist to be largely addressing the topic at hand.

Missed my point.

Many of the people whom are right now up in arms and upset over this never seemed to care about all the poor African's, Latinos, etc who die every single night due to firearms stemming from gang warfare and a HELL of a lot more people in these communities die every night in the states than this shooting yet I still don't see people constantly getting all upset by it so yeah, it rubs off as racist. Why are some middle class white kids more important over a larger number of poor African kids/adults?

But obiovusly there is massive racial inequality in the US, and as I mentioned twice before, we don't need to fix one thing at a time. How about we get on with addressing the lot at once?

Because second amendment.

Nothing will change and the sooner people realise this the better.

Focus on dealing with racial inequality, mental health inequality in general and gang warfare.

No point focusing on gun reform in the states, it won't ever happen.

 

[Tubbsy]

Many of the people whom are right now up in arms and upset over this never seemed to care about all the poor African's, Latinos, etc who die every single night due to firearms stemming from gang warfare and a HELL of a lot more people in these communities die every night in the states than this shooting yet I still don't see people constantly getting all upset by it so yeah, it rubs off as racist. Why are some middle class white kids more important over a larger number of poor African kids/adults?

Because it's children being shot at school. It's the entirely fact that they are children that people are getting so upset.

Society should protect its weakest members as a first priority, don't you think?

Not all of the child victims are white in these events anyway. It's not really a race issue at all.

No point focusing on gun reform in the states, it won't ever happen.

Fixing social inequality is more likely never to happen.

 

[Nambra]

We're all biased, I make my position clear knowing that it's not with the current zeitgeist in Australia. I also make an effort to at least show my reasoning so that even if people disagree with me, they can follow the logic to the conclusions I have made.

Just to reset on all this and get back onto OP's topic line.

What is the problem you're trying to solve?
How large is the problem?
How do you propose to fix it?
Do you think what you have proposed is actually achievable?
Why will this fix work?

Zaf, clearly a polarising topic and prone, by virtue of text-only communication, to folk being misunderstood. I am genuinely curious though as to the basis upon which you are making your contributions? I've read all the facts and references you've provided so far but that doesn't give me any insight into your own motivations - other than perhaps adding to the discussion from an informed basis. Is there some relevant background here that would give some additional context to your posts?

What johnny and Dales say about their experiences in the US highlights the cultural differences that allowed Howard to successfully tighten gun laws after Port Arthur, albeit with much resistance from the pro-gun collective at the time, and which has became a pivotal moment in Australia's recent history. When the average Joe in the US treats their guns like they're golf clubs... that sort of desensitised view of weapons is hard to fathom. Howard also mentions this cultural difference in his conversation with Richard Fidler on RN 20 years later:

"[George H.W. Bush] invited me to his presidential library in College Station in Texas. It was a nice event and he had several hundred friends and supporters. They were all very politically sympathetic to me because we're broadly on the same side of politics.

I gave a little speech and they applauded that, then one fellow got up and asked a few questions and asked what I was proud of. I said, 'We stood beside the United States in the fight against terrorism.' Loud applause. 'We got our budget balanced.' Very loud applause. 'We brought in national gun control laws.' The audience went 'uuuhhh'... it was like the sound of air exhaling from a balloon."

I've personally got nothing profound to add, other than my opinion is that the fewer the guns the better. I'm a parent and whilst I acknowledge that a kid here in Australia can quite easily sneak a kitchen knife in to my kid's school and cause havoc, that same kid turning up to school with semi-automatic rifle is a whole lot more scary, but fortunately a whole lot less likely in this country compared with the US.

 

[Spanky_Ham]

The pig doesn't go anywhere without his mutated anthrax... for duck huntin'.

 

[Zaf]

Removed by user

 

[flamin'trek]

The media go an make the 'shooter' famous. I've heard it mentioned that if they didn't publish names or images of the offender it might help reduce the 'infamy' aspect of the killer's though process. Additionally, I hear 'shooter' describing the killer way to often. Should stick to calling them a killer or murderer, especially since 'shooting' is so acceptable in the US, but murdering people is still serious. Seems to make sense for terrorist acts too, keep describing them as murderers of innocent victims and they lose a little of their 'purpose' in a terror act.

How many names of victims can we remember? How many names of the murderers can we remember? Make it less sensationalised, make it more about the victims. At least that is a step (very small one) in the thought process of the murderer thinking they'll 'take me seriously now' or 'they'll remember my name'.

 

[Binaural]

I know you're not trying to oversell that idea, but that sort of thing has been tried before. Remember the daily terror / Murdoch press efforts to rename "king hit" to "coward punch"? A bit of googling suggest that this hasn't exactly caught fire in the public domain. It may be a fine sentiment, but it's also the sort of thing that makes business school graduates curl into a ball and chant "hope is not a strategy". Even in an environment where there is a mass shooting every few days, more attention will focus on the protagonist than the victim.

Zaf, it's interesting to see your stout defence of US gun crime data as being robust. Impeding systematic research into gun crime beyond the basic statistics has been a focus point of the NRA for years, which doesn't help the public form an informed view of the problem. An interesting point made in this article: 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. If that number is correct, then it suggests to me that whilst crimes get the headlines, untreated mental health issues are driving the bodycount. I wonder if Obamacare has had any measurable effect on this?

 

[Zaf]

Removed by user

 

[Skydome]

Because it's children being shot at school. It's the entirely fact that they are children that people are getting so upset.

Society should protect its weakest members as a first priority, don't you think?

So basically people don't care about poor African/Latino communities.

Fixing social inequality is more likely never to happen.

It is more likely than having significant changes to U.S firearm laws and by tackling the root cause of the violence in the U.S you will solve it, but it will take generations especially when you have teachers in the U.S school system mock shooting Donald Trump in class.

Tackle the real issues like racial inequality, mental health, socitial issues, general inequality, gang warfare and you'll find the violence will go away eventually.

It's very much wasted time focusing on changing firearm laws as you'll never get substantial legislation through because second amendment.

 

[Mywifesirrational]

In total there have been 290 school shootings in the US since 2013.

Holy shit, that is more than one a week.

After Sandy Hook, nothing changed, if that event can't make a difference, nothing will.

 

[Zaf]

Removed by user

 

[flamin'trek]

WTF? Surely ANY shooting in a SCHOOL is way too many. Who cares if it is a shooting at a school or a school shooting. Little kids who put their trust in adults to look after them are being put in a situation that should not occur.

 

[Zaf]

Removed by user

 

[flamin'trek]

And I think you’ve missed my point. Arguing semantics over wether a gun/shooting event in a school is a school shooting event kinda dismisses the fact that it is a place for kids - who should have to deal with shootings.

 

[Lazmo]

There is no fix for the States... I hope I’m wrong, but they are in love with the individuals right to be judge, jurer, policeman, hangman... by being able to pull a trigger and make someone go away.

 

[Tubbsy]

So basically people don't care about poor African/Latino communities.

Um... no?

I said the reason people are so upset about these events is because children are being shot in schools. Children of various races.

By that logic I could say that you don't care about children being shot.

It is more likely than having significant changes to U.S firearm laws and by tackling the root cause of the violence in the U.S you will solve it, but it will take generations especially when you have teachers in the U.S school system mock shooting Donald Trump in class.

Tackle the real issues like racial inequality, mental health, socitial issues, general inequality, gang warfare and you'll find the violence will go away eventually.

Completely disagree I'm afraid.

You are setting the bar so high as to be literally unachievable (alls we need to do is eradicate inequality, poverty, mental illness... seriously?) while having no problem with a disturbed teenager being able to amass however many automatic weapons he can afford with minimal if any oversight.

I'll say it again: it's not an either/or - you can work to improve society AND limit access to this type of weapon. Did you see the picture of the dude? Only reason he was able to do what he did was because he could do it from a distance without much risk of someone taking him down.

 

[stirk]

I know you're not trying to oversell that idea, but that sort of thing has been tried before. Remember the daily terror / Murdoch press efforts to rename "king hit" to "coward punch"? A bit of googling suggest that this hasn't exactly caught fire in the public domain. It may be a fine sentiment, but it's also the sort of thing that makes business school graduates curl into a ball and chant "hope is not a strategy". Even in an environment where there is a mass shooting every few days, more attention will focus on the protagonist than the victim.

Zaf, it's interesting to see your stout defence of US gun crime data as being robust. Impeding systematic research into gun crime beyond the basic statistics has been a focus point of the NRA for years, which doesn't help the public form an informed view of the problem. An interesting point made in this article: 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. If that number is correct, then it suggests to me that whilst crimes get the headlines, untreated mental health issues are driving the bodycount. I wonder if Obamacare has had any measurable effect on this?

2/3 of all gun deaths are suicide, really??

Murder suicide more likely.

And if such gun related deaths as you quoted are really solo suicide acts then I'd say the gun is the enabling factor in so many of the deaths as it's easier than a noose or poison or other more painful and longer lasting agonising deaths that might make someone think twice.

To say guns kill is stupid, of course it needs someone to use it, but it sure works well as an enabler so I say guns enable more deaths to occur more easily.

 

[Flow-Rider]

Geebus, China has a few school massacres for the record, I didn't expect that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

 

[Zaf]

Removed by user