Centerlock Woes - Advice?

[AngoXC]

Evening lads and lasses,

Just wanted to get some thoughts on an issue that has come to my attention.

Last week, I purchased myself a set of Shimano MT65 wheels for my commuter. I could only get my hands on the Centerlock hubs so I also purchased a pair of centerlock adapters to go with the wheels (for use with my badass 'sawblade-style' rotors which are 6-bolt). All went together fairly easily last Tuesday and I've been making the commute to work ever since (which is made all the better with new parts!)

Today, I found that if I apply my brake, even though the rotor is held firm, the tyre/wheel can rotate a few degrees. (At first it felt like play in the headset until I saw that my wheel was actually moving). This is also evident on the rear wheel.

This evening, I pulled everything apart and found that the adapter can move a little on the splines of the centerlock hub (this is just sitting on the splines with no lockring or anything).

In addition to this, the pins that the rotor would usually sit in appear slightly smaller than the holes in the rotor. Frankly, it's a little concerning as I installed new brake pads and have been making hard stops at every possible chance so that they bed in quicker. If the rotor were to 'jump' the pins on the adapter altogether, I'd be in all sorts of strife!

Given that the adapters only cost ~$12, I figured I'd wear their cost and just get some proper centerlock rotors but what concerns me is that the play in the adapters has damaged the spines on the hub.

Just to check, I've test fitted a pair of Saint/XT centerlock rotors (fitted to my other bike) to the MT65 wheels. Without the lock ring, they do move ever so slightly on the centerlock splines (where as on my XT wheels, the rotors sit firm) but when the lockring is fitted and the wheel is in place, there doesn't seem to be any movement that I can feel.

My question is, should I trust my potentially compromised wheels? There has been a fair amount of force applied over the past week with ~250km of commuting plus some hard stops so I wouldn't be surprised if the splines on the hub have worn ever so slightly but with a 'proper' Centerlock rotor fitted, could I expect to encounter some difficulties in the future?

I'd like to avoid the pain-in-the-bum that would be contacting/returning these wheels to the place of purchase but part of me would really like the play it safe.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

[hathill]

Evening lads and lasses,

Just wanted to get some thoughts on an issue that has come to my attention.

Last week, I purchased myself a set of Shimano MT65 wheels for my commuter. I could only get my hands on the Centerlock hubs so I also purchased a pair of centerlock adapters to go with the wheels (for use with my badass 'sawblade-style' rotors which are 6-bolt). All went together fairly easily last Tuesday and I've been making the commute to work ever since (which is made all the better with new parts!)

Today, I found that if I apply my brake, even though the rotor is held firm, the tyre/wheel can rotate a few degrees. (At first it felt like play in the headset until I saw that my wheel was actually moving). This is also evident on the rear wheel.

This evening, I pulled everything apart and found that the adapter can move a little on the splines of the centerlock hub (this is just sitting on the splines with no lockring or anything).

In addition to this, the pins that the rotor would usually sit in appear slightly smaller than the holes in the rotor. Frankly, it's a little concerning as I installed new brake pads and have been making hard stops at every possible chance so that they bed in quicker. If the rotor were to 'jump' the pins on the adapter altogether, I'd be in all sorts of strife!

Given that the adapters only cost ~$12, I figured I'd wear their cost and just get some proper centerlock rotors but what concerns me is that the play in the adapters has damaged the spines on the hub.

Just to check, I've test fitted a pair of Saint/XT centerlock rotors (fitted to my other bike) to the MT65 wheels. Without the lock ring, they do move ever so slightly on the centerlock splines (where as on my XT wheels, the rotors sit firm) but when the lockring is fitted and the wheel is in place, there doesn't seem to be any movement that I can feel.

My question is, should I trust my potentially compromised wheels? There has been a fair amount of force applied over the past week with ~250km of commuting plus some hard stops so I wouldn't be surprised if the splines on the hub have worn ever so slightly but with a 'proper' Centerlock rotor fitted, could I expect to encounter some difficulties in the future?

I'd like to avoid the pain-in-the-bum that would be contacting/returning these wheels to the place of purchase but part of me would really like the play it safe.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

What brand/type are the adaptors? Is it a clamp type one? I've had no issue with the genuine Shimano adaptor after floatation testing the Jet Black one that the bike shop put on when the original 6 bolt hub was replaced with an SLX centrelock hub.

 

[Science]

I have the same movement in the centerlocks on my partner's brand new Cube. No adaptors involved, shimano centerlock disks and hubs.

Was considering taking it to LBS for a look, but got busy.

Should they move?

 

[AngoXC]

What brand/type are the adaptors? Is it a clamp type one? I've had no issue with the genuine Shimano adaptor after floatation testing the Jet Black one that the bike shop put on when the original 6 bolt hub was replaced with an SLX centrelock hub.

"Alligator" brand.

At the time of purchase, I thought the idea was pretty sound - the rotor simply sat in the 6 pegs on the face of the adapter. The lockring fitted over the top, clamping the adapter+rotor to the hub and fixing the rotor to the adapter. Simple with no need for bolts. (Used a fair bit of Alligator stuff and haven't had any issues so I had no reason not to trust their product).

I see that a clamp-style (where the adapter has a clamp in addition to the lockring and retains the use of the bolts to affix the rotor to the adapter) is possibly a better option and possibly could have avoided this.

After a bit more reading, I see now that the Alligator adapters in question are to be avoided for the same concerns as what I have expressed.

Balls.

 

[AngoXC]

Should they move?

I presume any movement between the rotor and the wheel is cause for some concern.

My issue is that the movement has damaged the splines to the point that I'll encounter issues down the track with a proper dedicated centerlock rotor.

 

[ChopSticks]

I have had both the $12 alligator adaptor and a $40 shimano one....both of them have play when installed in the splines.
I understand the movement you speak of. (when sitting on the bike and both brakes applied, you can rock the bike backwards/forwards?)

But I never worried about it.....maybe wrap plumbers tape around the splines of the hub and push the adaptor down into place?
as long as the lock ring doest loosen youll be fine

 

[AngoXC]

(when sitting on the bike and both brakes applied, you can rock the bike backwards/forwards?)

Yeah, that's the movement alright.

maybe wrap plumbers tape around the splines of the hub and push the adaptor down into place?
as long as the lock ring doest loosen youll be fine

Cheers for your thoughts but honestly, I don't think any movement here is acceptable.

The more I think about it, the more I'm lead to believe that the Alligator adapter is simply a rubbish design.
You can clearly see the tops of the pins (where the rotor bolts would normally sit) which are only partially covered by the lockring.



I'm going to e-mail the store and get their thoughts. The adapters are rubbish so if I can replace them and pay the difference towards a set of centerlock rotors, I'd be thrilled. I'm at a loss as to what to do with the wheels though as I'm not sure how much damage the adapters have done / if it will be a problem in the future / if it really matters on the grand scheme of things.

Thanks for your thoughts guys!

 

[99_FGT]

I found the same movement using adapters, but didn't suffer (even after >2000km) any damage to the splines on the hub.
If you install a CL rotor, and there is movement, then yes, the adapters have wrecked the hubs, but would have thought it was more an issue of the adapter / hub interface.
not much help really- have some CL rotors (in Brissie) if you wanted to try them
Al..

 

[hiredassassin]

If it makes you feel any better:

I've been running XT wheels with XT centrelock rotors for about 5 years. About a year ago I noticed the same play that you describe (lock the brake, wheel still rotates a couple of mm) and found that it was becasue the splines were worn. I replaced the rotor only, and whilst there was a little bit of damage to the splines on the hub (was difficult to fit the new disc).

To date I haven't had any further issues and don't expericence any play (These brakes have stood up to a lot of abuse - I'm 100kg on the bike and I ride pretty aggressively, and I brake hard using hope 4 pots on an 8 inch rotor!).

Also (probably too late) I'd personally stay away form alligator products. I purchased some pads via torpedo7 years ago and they were the worst quality brake pad I ever encountered!

 

[Shredden]

You can clearly see the tops of the pins (where the rotor bolts would normally sit) which are only partially covered by the lockring.

I dont think this is the problem, probably more due to poor tolerances in the alligator design IMO. Commencal complete XC bikes have come with an adapter that is basically the same for a few years, and I know a heap of guys who ride them hard and regularly without any issues or play.

 

[tomacropod]

The movement you describe should only occur once, as you brake going forward. At that point the rotor will be forced back against the 6 posts, and the adaptor against the splines. In use, on a normal bike, there is no rearward movement. It is the movement that wears out the material, not the gap.

Centrelock splines are not tapered at all, so they do not tighten up as the lockring is tightened - unlike a splined bottom bracket, for example, which has to resist movement from both directions in succession.

Install the lot, do it up tight, and don't worry about it. There's no way the rotor can jump over the posts, or the adaptor over the splines.

The reason the posts are half exposed on the alligator/shimano/dt swiss/a2z/etc/etc type adaptors, is so that the lockring physically engages the rotor, pushing it against the adaptor, and allowing for variations in rotor thickness so that it can't slide side-to-side on the posts.

My piece on the pinch-bolt type (eg Jet black and Problem Solvers) is that they are drilled in the correct pattern, then slotted for the pinch gap. As such, when the gap closes, the rotor deforms as the holes change location slightly. Having seen this many times, I won't recommend them.

- Joel

 

[hathill]

The movement you describe should only occur once, as you brake going forward. At that point the rotor will be forced back against the 6 posts, and the adaptor against the splines. In use, on a normal bike, there is no rearward movement. It is the movement that wears out the material, not the gap.

Centrelock splines are not tapered at all, so they do not tighten up as the lockring is tightened - unlike a splined bottom bracket, for example, which has to resist movement from both directions in succession.

Install the lot, do it up tight, and don't worry about it. There's no way the rotor can jump over the posts, or the adaptor over the splines.

The reason the posts are half exposed on the alligator/shimano/dt swiss/a2z/etc/etc type adaptors, is so that the lockring physically engages the rotor, pushing it against the adaptor, and allowing for variations in rotor thickness so that it can't slide side-to-side on the posts.

My piece on the pinch-bolt type (eg Jet black and Problem Solvers) is that they are drilled in the correct pattern, then slotted for the pinch gap. As such, when the gap closes, the rotor deforms as the holes change location slightly. Having seen this many times, I won't recommend them.

- Joel

Here here! I concur. I have genuine centre-lock rotors and they all have a little movement if you rock the bike back and forth with the brakes on, but that's completely normal. If they were so tight that there was no play, you'd never get them off for maintenance down the track as they would corrode together.

The reason the adaptor shows half the pin is to allow the locking to clamp down on the disc itself otherwise it'd just rattle around.
Bolt it up and ride it.

 

[BLUMAN]

The reason the posts are half exposed on the alligator/shimano/dt swiss/a2z/etc/etc type adaptors, is so that the lockring physically engages the rotor, pushing it against the adaptor, and allowing for variations in rotor thickness so that it can't slide side-to-side on the posts.

My piece on the pinch-bolt type (eg Jet black and Problem Solvers) is that they are drilled in the correct pattern, then slotted for the pinch gap. As such, when the gap closes, the rotor deforms as the holes change location slightly. Having seen this many times, I won't recommend them.

- Joel

+1 for this

I also run the alligator adapters and rotors on my red metal 3's with no movement or problems. Just make sure you torque the locking correctly.

The RM3's also use an "outside" style lock ring that takes a BB tool instead of the cassette tool, so I can't use the supplied lockrings that come with the adapters (special lockrings supplied with the wheels) but still dont have any issues. I have also previously used the DT Swiss ones adapters, which are good.