Cracking 29er Frames
- Thread starter Big JD
- Start date
Sumgy
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Agreed.
Out of this now.
Should have known that sustained sensible discussion could not occur.
Big JD
Wheel size expert
No Bashing
Sumgy at times you have the sensitivity of a train crash mate. When you type a response like that it lacks tact, tolerance and is devoid of emotions (dry) because it is text. Understanding folks, please.
If in fact there is an issue with the longevity and strength of 29er frames then the Asian Manufacturing Community is a great place to shine a light. Are those companies at fault - well probably not - they build what / how their clients request. Get the bike companies to ensure the manufacturing companies are lifting standards (implementing new designs required) and then get the bike companies to train the bike stores / employees to ensure the right bike goes to the right customer to negate some of the risks and number of returns.
Do we need to set weight restrictions on certain high end frames?
Should entry level frames be beefed up (at the expense of wieght) to gain greater longevity (reduce footprint, warranties, disappointment, etc)
Now there is nothing stopping me from purchasing an Air 9 or carbon Specialized and at 110kgs loaded ride the legs off it (not downhill). Perhaps it will hold up ok but there is a great chance that it will fail and l will return it to my LBS for a replacement. At some stage the shop or brand would need to say, "hey JD, you are a big boy (and rather good looking) - just threw that in - we think you should be on a Niner MCR or EMD and here we go (plus refund difference in cost)". Otherwise it is a vicious circle and lots of down time for the rider.
From the shops perspective l cant imagine there is alot of training and upskilling of staff going on across the industry. Employees learn knowledge through their peers and experience and if they are only working Saturdays for pocket money it will take awhile to get there. Now please dont get me started on customer service - that is another whole rant.
JD
Now we have got to page four before the big stick came out. On another MTB forum site there is no way we could have got this far without brands, reputations, builders and individuals being pulled through the muck. Skinya - your comments about major producing countries being the major polluters was not racist and it is great that we look at this issue with an eye on the enviromental impact - hell we ride bikes.
Sumgy at times you have the sensitivity of a train crash mate. When you type a response like that it lacks tact, tolerance and is devoid of emotions (dry) because it is text. Understanding folks, please.
If in fact there is an issue with the longevity and strength of 29er frames then the Asian Manufacturing Community is a great place to shine a light. Are those companies at fault - well probably not - they build what / how their clients request. Get the bike companies to ensure the manufacturing companies are lifting standards (implementing new designs required) and then get the bike companies to train the bike stores / employees to ensure the right bike goes to the right customer to negate some of the risks and number of returns.
Do we need to set weight restrictions on certain high end frames?
Should entry level frames be beefed up (at the expense of wieght) to gain greater longevity (reduce footprint, warranties, disappointment, etc)
Now there is nothing stopping me from purchasing an Air 9 or carbon Specialized and at 110kgs loaded ride the legs off it (not downhill). Perhaps it will hold up ok but there is a great chance that it will fail and l will return it to my LBS for a replacement. At some stage the shop or brand would need to say, "hey JD, you are a big boy (and rather good looking) - just threw that in - we think you should be on a Niner MCR or EMD and here we go (plus refund difference in cost)". Otherwise it is a vicious circle and lots of down time for the rider.
From the shops perspective l cant imagine there is alot of training and upskilling of staff going on across the industry. Employees learn knowledge through their peers and experience and if they are only working Saturdays for pocket money it will take awhile to get there. Now please dont get me started on customer service - that is another whole rant.
JD
Big JD
Wheel size expert
Steady on there cowboy
l would hate to see anyone inserting anything as big as a head up their poo tube - we know it was not a racist comment Skinya - breathe buddy.
Antsonline
Likes Dirt
and moving on....
I like this idea of 'fit for purpose' - except in my case I have basically fitted all criteria adn the frames have still broken.
I'm tall - 6foot 3ish, but I'm light (ish) at 79kgs. I am very light on bike bits. I only ever ride pure XC - things like Dirtworks, Husky, Cap Punishment. The most 'knarly' XC I ride is at Alice Springs once a year. Pretty softcore.
I only use my 'race bike' for racing, as I am lucky enough to have a 2nd bike for training, so the wear and tear is minimal.
I ride 1450grm wheels and they never buckle and use 500grm tyres and they never tear (except in Alice!).
I must be the ideal build for an XL frame designed for XC. If you were to ask a manufacturer who would be riding their XL XC bikes, and for what, I would be that rider.
I am lucky enogh tobe able to train sufficently to be able to race elite and be trowards the front - so I do produce a fair amount of wattage and power, but it is delivered smoothly.
Yet - I am two breaks down, with complete confidence that more will come.
I like light bike bits - they do make a difference, and the components have never failed on me. Ever.
It seems as though the frames are just not fit for purpose. Thats the only conclusion I can get to.
If you gave me any brand - of all the ones discussed above, and more - I know examples of breakages.
The only one I dont know of is the Santa Cruz. They cant be doing anything much different, so its only a matter of time for them too.
Sorry - just resigned to the fact that my best buy is a good warranty, rather than a good frame.
I like this idea of 'fit for purpose' - except in my case I have basically fitted all criteria adn the frames have still broken.
I'm tall - 6foot 3ish, but I'm light (ish) at 79kgs. I am very light on bike bits. I only ever ride pure XC - things like Dirtworks, Husky, Cap Punishment. The most 'knarly' XC I ride is at Alice Springs once a year. Pretty softcore.
I only use my 'race bike' for racing, as I am lucky enough to have a 2nd bike for training, so the wear and tear is minimal.
I ride 1450grm wheels and they never buckle and use 500grm tyres and they never tear (except in Alice!).
I must be the ideal build for an XL frame designed for XC. If you were to ask a manufacturer who would be riding their XL XC bikes, and for what, I would be that rider.
I am lucky enogh tobe able to train sufficently to be able to race elite and be trowards the front - so I do produce a fair amount of wattage and power, but it is delivered smoothly.
Yet - I am two breaks down, with complete confidence that more will come.
I like light bike bits - they do make a difference, and the components have never failed on me. Ever.
It seems as though the frames are just not fit for purpose. Thats the only conclusion I can get to.
If you gave me any brand - of all the ones discussed above, and more - I know examples of breakages.
The only one I dont know of is the Santa Cruz. They cant be doing anything much different, so its only a matter of time for them too.
Sorry - just resigned to the fact that my best buy is a good warranty, rather than a good frame.
Big JD
Wheel size expert
perfect
Thanks for your imput A
Best buy is a good warranty rather than a good frame - quite a statement and doesnt that highlight how important customer service is from your LBS and the Importer. After many years or buying, riding and trading frames/bikes there are a few companies, regardless of quality of product, that l wont purchase because the support here in OZ is not up to scratch and would rather not deal with UK or US (expensive postage). Most of the importers here will take enquiries from the general public, offer advise and support without a second thought - which is good if you cant get the answers from your LBS.
Thanks for your imput A
Antsonline
Likes Dirt
So - perhaps instead of reviews of good frames and weights etc we should be sharing great experiences of warranty.
Not that they break anoy more than the next 29er, but Trek/Fisher have a very good replacement policy.
...so I hear....
Pizzaz
Likes Dirt
So you race competitively (or at least you think you do) but aren't cracking the group where you ride what you're told rather than get a choice... (i.e. you're spending your own cash in some way shape or form). This (anecdotally) seems to be where the reported breakages occur... Ants is a great example of this. I'm wondering whether in order to get a bike weight down to a 'competitive' point then perhaps some manufacturers are making this up in the frame?
Just using some 'net research...
Going from i9 unlralights to i9 ultralight 29ers adds 190g in the wheels
Tyres... going from a Continental Race King supersonic (460g in a 2.2) to the 29er version (650g) adds 380g
So... just in wheels and tyres you've added 570g and that's rotating mass... As most of the other bits (excluding frame and assuming that a 100mm 26in fork is roughly equiv to an 80mm 29er fork) are the same... a 9kg 26in hardtail is about the same as a 9.5kg 29er hardtail but then you add frame weight.
Scott are claiming 949g for their 29er frame which afaik isn't that much more than their 26in carbon frame. Perhaps that additional rotating mass is enough to cause breakage of a 29in frame and not on a 26in?
Although if it was a rotating mass issue then I'd expect wheels to be breaking before the frame...
Interesting discussion though...
Just using some 'net research...
Going from i9 unlralights to i9 ultralight 29ers adds 190g in the wheels
Tyres... going from a Continental Race King supersonic (460g in a 2.2) to the 29er version (650g) adds 380g
So... just in wheels and tyres you've added 570g and that's rotating mass... As most of the other bits (excluding frame and assuming that a 100mm 26in fork is roughly equiv to an 80mm 29er fork) are the same... a 9kg 26in hardtail is about the same as a 9.5kg 29er hardtail but then you add frame weight.
Scott are claiming 949g for their 29er frame which afaik isn't that much more than their 26in carbon frame. Perhaps that additional rotating mass is enough to cause breakage of a 29in frame and not on a 26in?
Although if it was a rotating mass issue then I'd expect wheels to be breaking before the frame...
Interesting discussion though...
John U
MTB Precision
If this the way you want to go then that is fair enough. The issue with this method, which I have experienced, is when you crack a frame (26r but i dnon't think the process would be much different for a 29r) at the start of summer and are told a replacement will not be available for the next 3 months, all of summer.
I would rather just have a frame that won't break. I don't want to be dicking around with warranty processes regardless of how good they are, I just want to ride, and given this I build my stuff up bit heavier but generally bulletproof.
The company that this occured with was upfront with the fact that it was going to take 3 months to get a replacement and this helped a lot. I decided to buy another bike rather than wait all summer for the replacement. And I wasn't going into the shop every couple of days for 3 months asking if the replacement had arrived which would have been increasingly frustrating and disappointing for both me and the shop.
abevern
Likes Dirt
I think there is some confusion here about where the "extra load" from 29er wheels might be coming from. It's certainly not the extra 500g of rotating weight, it's the extra length in the spokes. Wheels are like a lever, and the longer the lever, the more effort it takes at the dropouts, to stop the ground folding your bike in half. (Specifically referring to side-loading here)
Vertical loads from rough terrain are likely to be lower than on a 26" bike - the extra smoothness we all feel, is the axles moving less for a given piece of ground.
Conversely, the longer tubing of a 29er (e.g. chain stays/forks) will be subject to greater deflection as a natural consequence of their length (this assumes that it's not heavier grade tubing to compensate). Aluminium, by it's nature, fatigues when it is bent. Everytime your alloy frame flexes, you're using up a bit of its life (and it is flexing all the time that it isn't leaning against a wall).
Far back in this thread someone suggested that perhaps 29er riders are naturally more advanced (we're clearly smarter
) - I think that's probably part of it - I don't know any n00bs on 29ers. But I also think that alot of 26" knowledge is carried forward into 29er design, and that this, along with the relentless demand for "lighter, and with more gears" drives the failure rates that people are seeing. All that said, all I've ever broken is the Ti rails on a saddle.
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Refreshinglygood
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Yeah?? You sure about that??
Big JD
Wheel size expert
Good run
29er riders are usually older and better skilled
It is the wheels that put the extra leverage on the frames
Most noobs wouldnt be on 29ers
It is the fact that 29er frames are longer so weaker
29ers are now more commonly used as allround trail bikes
People are expecting more from there 29ers
Do manufacturers need to impose weight restrictions or clyde friendly options
Discussion on enviromental impact
Warranties
and additional training for LBS works to ensure correct bike (size and usage) for clients.I could sum up that despite a number of broken frames out there the local Australian Distributors are looking after the customers very well and is health. I am sure that the major players are collating and detailling the failures out there and refining their production. There are quite a number of companies building some rather burly frames to accommodate Clydes and hackers alike. Niner have had some issues and are actively communicating with industry and punters and should be commended for the wholistic approach they have taken. Intense continue to push the boundries for their big hit, pedal friendly T29 - availability and support in OZ - unknown. Banshee have done well in Australia so it looks likely that we may see the new Paradox (beefie HT) all the while Niner are strengthing up their Jet, Rip and offer the WFO as a true heavy weight trail bike. The new DWL Turner and the Pivots are exceptionally stiff and ride quality is superb and beautifully suited as jack of all rigs. Lenz are non existant in OZ but are the big sleeper with enough models to capture a larger slice of the market and the new Specialised and Cannondale offerings are major improvements in strength -FS and light - CS. Blacksheep, Lynsky and Ventana continue to offer a level of custom builds for not only for fit but also for intended use (beefie if required). Oh and the Yeti Big Top offers more options and customisation for the hardtail rider than any other off the shelve HT on the Planet - not bad for first offering.
You would have to agree the 29er realm is looking very positive and as been a breathe of fresh air for many of us. Australian MTB magazine is reviewing a host of 29er HTs in their next review and their are more reviews in foriegn mags than ever before. Pros are choosing the platform for racing and winning of 29er powered rigs and more first timers to the world of MTB are choosing 29ers (predominately for fit). Hell, two of the past three 29ers l have personally sold were to people looking to get into the sport for the first time............... yes they were the size of giraffes. 29ers are no longer a niche market for a few but a viable option across all facets of MTBing.
Have a good day
JD
Well that thread got a good run and some very interesting input from the broader 29er community. SOme interesting comments
29er riders are usually older and better skilled
It is the wheels that put the extra leverage on the frames
Most noobs wouldnt be on 29ers
It is the fact that 29er frames are longer so weaker
29ers are now more commonly used as allround trail bikes
People are expecting more from there 29ers
Do manufacturers need to impose weight restrictions or clyde friendly options
Discussion on enviromental impact
Warranties
and additional training for LBS works to ensure correct bike (size and usage) for clients.I could sum up that despite a number of broken frames out there the local Australian Distributors are looking after the customers very well and is health. I am sure that the major players are collating and detailling the failures out there and refining their production. There are quite a number of companies building some rather burly frames to accommodate Clydes and hackers alike. Niner have had some issues and are actively communicating with industry and punters and should be commended for the wholistic approach they have taken. Intense continue to push the boundries for their big hit, pedal friendly T29 - availability and support in OZ - unknown. Banshee have done well in Australia so it looks likely that we may see the new Paradox (beefie HT) all the while Niner are strengthing up their Jet, Rip and offer the WFO as a true heavy weight trail bike. The new DWL Turner and the Pivots are exceptionally stiff and ride quality is superb and beautifully suited as jack of all rigs. Lenz are non existant in OZ but are the big sleeper with enough models to capture a larger slice of the market and the new Specialised and Cannondale offerings are major improvements in strength -FS and light - CS. Blacksheep, Lynsky and Ventana continue to offer a level of custom builds for not only for fit but also for intended use (beefie if required). Oh and the Yeti Big Top offers more options and customisation for the hardtail rider than any other off the shelve HT on the Planet - not bad for first offering.
You would have to agree the 29er realm is looking very positive and as been a breathe of fresh air for many of us. Australian MTB magazine is reviewing a host of 29er HTs in their next review and their are more reviews in foriegn mags than ever before. Pros are choosing the platform for racing and winning of 29er powered rigs and more first timers to the world of MTB are choosing 29ers (predominately for fit). Hell, two of the past three 29ers l have personally sold were to people looking to get into the sport for the first time............... yes they were the size of giraffes. 29ers are no longer a niche market for a few but a viable option across all facets of MTBing.
Have a good day
JD
Well
I have had 18 years of xc racing, commuting and trail riding and still have and use my first xc frame and have also just retired my 2nd frame at 13 years of age. It is still in excellent condition but its aluminium so enough is enough. My first 1 is steel.
Just built up my first 29er and love it 2 bits- just on 2500 ks of racing and training so far and no problems.
No I am not light, weighing in at 95 kilos but as an engineer I do respect my equipment and only ride it with in its limits and maintain it regularly.
cheers
I have had 18 years of xc racing, commuting and trail riding and still have and use my first xc frame and have also just retired my 2nd frame at 13 years of age. It is still in excellent condition but its aluminium so enough is enough. My first 1 is steel.
Just built up my first 29er and love it 2 bits- just on 2500 ks of racing and training so far and no problems.
No I am not light, weighing in at 95 kilos but as an engineer I do respect my equipment and only ride it with in its limits and maintain it regularly.
cheers