Deore 12 speed

Dales Cannon

lightbrain about 4pm
Staff member
American Classic went out of business a couple of years ago, so no chance.
Cannondale will be a type of OEM hub.
I have a set of DTSwiss sitting there in 27.5 so they might be a chance. Otherwise no go. Eleven has proven enough but you know not as good as eleventy two!
 

Dales Cannon

lightbrain about 4pm
Staff member
I think they are 360s but will check the web since they are 1500 something. I went for the classics for some rim width.
 

rowdyflat

chez le médecin
Ridden it? Or assumption...?
If it is so much cleverer and faster , changes in 1/3 the time ,why hasnt it come out before this ?
Shimano introduced hyperglide about 1990 so whats different ?
Or are they saying that going to 12 speed 10-51 would not change well without hyperglide +?
 

bear the bear

Is a real bear
If it is so much cleverer and faster , changes in 1/3 the time ,why hasnt it come out before this ?
Shimano introduced hyperglide about 1990 so whats different ?
Or are they saying that going to 12 speed 10-51 would not change well without hyperglide +?
There really are no new big developments left with bike design unless we pull hard left or right and head down a completely different development path, everything is now incremental gains.
Having ridden Shimano 12spd for the last 10 months, the best feature is the Hyperglide +, not the additional gear moving from 11spd to 12spd.
It's hard to describe, and really needs to be ridden to understand how good the shifting under load is now with this tech.
If your trails aren't rolling and don't require a lot of sudden ups and downs on the cassette then the benefits will be a lot less.
 

beeb

Dr. Beebenson, PhD HA, ST, Offset (hons)
If it is so much cleverer and faster , changes in 1/3 the time ,why hasnt it come out before this ?
Shimano introduced hyperglide about 1990 so whats different ?
Or are they saying that going to 12 speed 10-51 would not change well without hyperglide +?
Don't know why it hasn't come out earlier - I can't answer for Shimano, I guess it either took a long time to figure out or they sat on a patent for a long time. Wouldn't have been easy to design though.

What's different is the original Hyperglide only worked when going one way across the cassette (if changing to a physically larger, easier gear). Hyperglide+ works both ways accross the cassette, so you don't get the big slap when shifting to a harder gear (this doesn't happen every time on standard Hyperglide - it depends on which ramps are in sequence, but in reality it happens more often than not).

It's very different in feel when you're riding. The shifts to a harder gear are very noticeably improved. It works by not releasing to previous gear before the new gear is fully engaged, so there is almost no slap/jump when shifting. I think there's one ratio change that does it occasionally (roughly 5-4 from memory), but the other changes are great. I have a die-hard SRAM loving (XX1 owning) mate who hated my prior XT M8000 11sp setup (I didn't mind it). He took my new 12-speed XT/XTR combo I'm running and was shocked by how well it shifted. Even he couldn't help but admit he loved it.
 

Haakon

Keeps on digging
I’m not too fussed by being able to shift under load, 30 years of habit has me managing to change when I need to. Not mangling cassettes anyway...

I just want consistent and reliable shifting and Eagle isn’t doing that. One in ten shifts will hang for a second or go click click click as it tried to engage and it drives me nuts.
 

Nambra

Definitely should have gone to specsavers
I’m not too fussed by being able to shift under load, 30 years of habit has me managing to change when I need to. Not mangling cassettes anyway...

I just want consistent and reliable shifting and Eagle isn’t doing that. One in ten shifts will hang for a second or go click click click as it tried to engage and it drives me nuts.
Do you feel that you have a consistent finger action when shifting? Eagle seems to respond better when you shift like you intend to ie. a quick and deliberate finger action on the shift levers. Having ridden X01 again more recently (broken hand rehab good enough to start taking chances on the dually), there is a slightly crisper feel to the X01 shifter action compared to GX, almost like it helps to ensure a more consistent shifting action regardless of how you operate the shifter. With GX there could be a little more variability, so consistent finger action might play a bigger part in shifting performance? Just a theory...
 

SummitFever

Eats Squid
I've got XT 12 speed on one bike and XTR 11 speed on the other. Can't tell any difference in shifting. Both are good but Hyperglide+ is probably just marketing.
 

Haakon

Keeps on digging
Do you feel that you have a consistent finger action when shifting? Eagle seems to respond better when you shift like you intend to ie. a quick and deliberate finger action on the shift levers. Having ridden X01 again more recently (broken hand rehab good enough to start taking chances on the dually), there is a slightly crisper feel to the X01 shifter action compared to GX, almost like it helps to ensure a more consistent shifting action regardless of how you operate the shifter. With GX there could be a little more variability, so consistent finger action might play a bigger part in shifting performance? Just a theory...
Dunno... I press the button!
I’ve been mountain biking since the days of friction levers, and have lived the evolution of shifting ever since. Never questioned my lever pressing technique yet :)

My eagle is GX with the X01 derailleur mod and an X01 shifter. @K.C. is on the money i think, as well as it just generally being a bit flexy.
Dunno... not ridden the Shimano 12 speed yet, keen to see how it goes. I hope they’ve cured the heavy lever action of the XT 10 speed I had - that started my love affair with SRAM with the wonderful X01 11 speed which was a delight.
 

gippyz

Likes Dirt
I recently helped a mate out "upgrading" his 10 speed bike to 12 speed XT. Wasn't exactly impressed with the way it works, the cassette mount is weird in a way that the 10t cog was "dangling". Can't explain it. Just different. No it wasn't the hub incompatibility as the hub was XT 12 speed.

The shifting was better in that it was smoother.

The crank has this lockring that goes behind the chainring to lock it up. That cause problem with his existing bb as it makes the spindle too short. Well we sused out a different bb for him as the drivetrain didn't come with one, which is nuts.

Well, I'm happy to say I'll stick by my 1x10 system running 30T chainring 42T cassette. Works just fine, not 5 star shifting, but it works and doesn't break my bank account when i need to replace the parts. The old 10 speed will most likely last more kms than the new 12 speed as well. I could be wrong, but regardless, it's still cheaper to replace.
 

Kerplunk

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Dunno... I press the button!
I’ve been mountain biking since the days of friction levers, and have lived the evolution of shifting ever since. Never questioned my lever pressing technique yet :)

My eagle is GX with the X01 derailleur mod and an X01 shifter. @K.C. is on the money i think, as well as it just generally being a bit flexy.
Dunno... not ridden the Shimano 12 speed yet, keen to see how it goes. I hope they’ve cured the heavy lever action of the XT 10 speed I had - that started my love affair with SRAM with the wonderful X01 11 speed which was a delight.
I swap between bikes one has gx eagle the other xt 1x11.. Sram requires more force on the shifter to change.. I used to think the m8000 xt was too firm but not now I have side by side comparison.. I imagine the new xt would be very good..
 

mas2

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I recently helped a mate out "upgrading" his 10 speed bike to 12 speed XT. Wasn't exactly impressed with the way it works, the cassette mount is weird in a way that the 10t cog was "dangling". Can't explain it. Just different. No it wasn't the hub incompatibility as the hub was XT 12 speed.

The shifting was better in that it was smoother.

The crank has this lockring that goes behind the chainring to lock it up. That cause problem with his existing bb as it makes the spindle too short. Well we sused out a different bb for him as the drivetrain didn't come with one, which is nuts.

Well, I'm happy to say I'll stick by my 1x10 system running 30T chainring 42T cassette. Works just fine, not 5 star shifting, but it works and doesn't break my bank account when i need to replace the parts. The old 10 speed will most likely last more kms than the new 12 speed as well. I could be wrong, but regardless, it's still cheaper to replace.
I think where 1x10 will make a comeback is in the ebike market as the chains are stronger and more durable.
 

Nambra

Definitely should have gone to specsavers
Dunno... I press the button!
I’ve been mountain biking since the days of friction levers, and have lived the evolution of shifting ever since. Never questioned my lever pressing technique yet :)

My eagle is GX with the X01 derailleur mod and an X01 shifter. @K.C. is on the money i think, as well as it just generally being a bit flexy.
Dunno... not ridden the Shimano 12 speed yet, keen to see how it goes. I hope they’ve cured the heavy lever action of the XT 10 speed I had - that started my love affair with SRAM with the wonderful X01 11 speed which was a delight.
I wasn't suggesting that you don't know how to change gears, just wondering if changes in shifting is a contributor to the variability in shifting with your GX derailleur ie. does hand fatigue makes a difference etc. My apologies if it didn't come across as intended.

I'd forgotten you'd upraded to the X01 shifter too, so that's one less variable. Based on my perceptions of having both full GX (with X01 B-bolt mod) and X01 12-speed drivetrains to compare side by side, there seems to be a few subtleties between the two that affect the shifting performance. The main ones being:
  1. The GX cassette is stamped metal, X01 is CNC machined - you'd expect the ramps must be a little more precise with X01 along with cog spacing as it's all machined from a single billet. Also, the granny cog on GX must be a 6000 series alloy compared with maybe 7000 on X01 - I've had a single 50T cog tooth bend outward slightly on GX such that it picks up the chain when it's on the 42T cog and causes ghost shifting until the tooth is straightened out (only talking fractions of a mm here too). I should actually swap the two cassettes over at some stage, and see if there is any noticeable difference.
  2. Derailleur stiffness - GX has slightly more play in the parallelogram linkages compared to X01. There is a lot more movement at the GX B-knuckle and replacing the stock B-bolt with the X01 version makes the GX feel the same as X01 in that respect, but I'm not sure it's translated to a massive improvement in shifting? I think it helps keep the whole derailleur more 'in line' with the cassette; as it's more perpendicular at the B-knuckle / hanger mount, this in turn ensures the cage and jockey wheels are more precisely aligned too.

Eliminating the B-bolt cause of movement leaves the rest of the derailleur to consider, but I can't really comment on mine as within the first 2 or 3 rides on it, a large stick jammed in my GX mech and twisted the parallelogram, affecting shifting on either end of the cassette depending on which end I tried to adjust for. It took a few tinnies and some physiotherapy to get it back to a point that shifting across all gears was consistent again. I also suspect that perfect hanger alignment is not necessarily critical - it is better being 'tuned' to suit the actual derailleur installed to compensate for its manufacturing imperfections. Ensuring that upper jockey wheel traverses the cassette is more important than hanger alignment, although you need a starting point to work from.

Here I go overthinking things as usual. Slow work day I guess and I'd rather be out riding.
 
Top