Election 2010: Who will you be voting for? and why? (Constructive forum responses)

2010: Who will you vote for?

  • Liberal

    Votes: 34 40.5%
  • Labor

    Votes: 19 22.6%
  • Nationals

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • Democrats

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Greens

    Votes: 13 15.5%
  • Independent (as in non-aligned individual)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Invalid (blank form or scribbled pesonal comment - ie waste of time voter)

    Votes: 8 9.5%
  • Warnie

    Votes: 9 10.7%

  • Total voters
    84

brisneyland

Likes Dirt
Be careful as Ozz, as soon as you start calling it how it is, a whole lot of people will suddenly start labelling you a racist and a cruel proponent of denying people their human rights. God forbid you acknowledge these people are BREAKING THE LAW.
Weren't you the law student?

Firstly, that's not "how it is" - refer to a.) reality,b.) facts and c.) my previous post on the matter.

Secondly, they're not breaking the law. They're only breaking the law when you can prove that they have no legitimate claim to asylum and are in fact illegal immigrants.

Third, even if they were, do you agree that all people accused of a crime in this country should be incarcerated for years on end without trial?

Because that is in effect what we are doing.

We are assuming guilt on their behalf and punishing them for it, without trial.
 

Australia

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Sorry mate but this post is full of emotion and rhetoric, and light on facts.

Leaving legitimate refugees to "fend for themselves?"

They're 'asylum seekers', not 'illegal immigrants' and the distinction is an important one.

By calling them 'illegal immigrants' you've already decided that they're not legitimate refugees that are afforded certain rights under international law. Which is convenient, cause we as a country are denying people those rights, incarcerating and punishing them without trial. Nice. Fuck you Geneva!

BTW asylum seekers have been housed in motels and such since well before Rudd came to power. Don't believe the media hype; blaming Rudd personally for things like that is petty in the extreme.
Forgive me, I was unaware the Geneva Convention relating to the treatment of prisoners of war was applicable to illegal immigrants/ assylum seekers... oh wait... Whilst we're citing irrelavent pieces of international law to make our arguements sound like they have a legal basis when they don't, I'd like to cite the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. It supports my stance on assylum seekers. The end.
 

Arete

Likes Dirt
Dude it's got nothing to do with the Geneva convention...pay more attention in class :p
"
A Refugee is a person recognised as a refugee under the 1951 Refugee Convention/ 1967 Protocol or the 1969 OAU Convention. An Asylum-seeker is a person whose application for asylum or refugee status is pending at any stage in the procedure or who is otherwise registered as an asylum-seeker. " Refugee Council of Australia

"An asylum seeker is someone who has fled their own country and applies to the government of another country for protection as a refugee. As a signatory to the Refugee Convention, Australia must comply with its obligations and ensure that all those who make claims for protection while in Australia have their claims assessed in accordance with the Refugee Convention. A person is a refugee the moment he or she fulfils the criteria of this Convention. When Australia grants a refugee visa it does not establish but rather confirms their refugee status under international law" - HREOC
 
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brisneyland

Likes Dirt
UNHCR is headquartered in Geneva.

Is that the best you've got?

International law is not irrelevant.
 
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ozz

Likes Bikes
People arriving undocumented on a boats and getting let in are spitting in the faces of people who immigrated or seek refugee status and moved their family to australia through the proper channels.
It's a tricky situation but we cant just let anyone who turns up on a boat waltz in, give them a house, a car and well wishes.

Australia, im not too worried about being labelled racist, i know that im not; I don't believe its an issue of race, it doesnt matter where illegal immigrants come from - Americans and Europeans make up a big portion of illegal immigration in australia, namely by overstaying visas.
I have close friends of all races, and judge people on their actions. I just believe the Australian Govt needs to look after australia's interests first.
We have two groups of immigrants coming into australia, those doing so legally, and those who are breaking our laws before they even get here.

There is no easy answer - i dont claim to have one, but Australia's becominging so PC that its harmfull to our own interests.
 

Ek155

Likes Dirt
Forgive me, I was unaware the Geneva Convention relating to the treatment of prisoners of war was applicable to illegal immigrants/ assylum seekers... oh wait... Whilst we're citing irrelavent pieces of international law to make our arguements sound like they have a legal basis when they don't, I'd like to cite the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. It supports my stance on assylum seekers. The end.
Dude
We signed
http://www.unhcr.org/3b66c2aa10.html
that (PS look at article 31 and 32...)


and read this.
https://www.getup.org.au/files/campaigns/asylum_myths_factsheet.pdf

Don't tell me that is bullshit, because they are just as willing to shoot down labour or liberal, so it is not biased (look at the ETS campaign and the Internet censorship).
 

Australia

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Dude it's got nothing to do with the Geneva convention...pay more attention in class :p
I know that, you know that, Bris knows that. I just thought it odd that Brisneyland expected me to have ESP and assume he was referring to he city the HQ of the relavent organisation was in rather than the more common reference to the Geneva convention. We're on the internet, these things get lost in translation.:)
 

brisneyland

Likes Dirt
People arriving undocumented on a boats and getting let in are spitting in the faces of people who immigrated or seek refugee status and moved their family to australia through the proper channels.
It's a tricky situation but we cant just let anyone who turns up on a boat waltz in, give them a house, a car and well wishes.
I see this argument a lot and I don't understand it. Are people actually concerned that legitimate immigrants, applying through the normal channels, might have their application delayed because of these so called 'illegal' immigrants?

I don't see how such people can claim to have so much compassion for 'legal' refugees and then quite happily allow our government to incarcerate others.

It's illogical.

I agree with you that it's a difficult situation without an easy answer, and nor do I have one. I just know that this is not it.
 

Arete

Likes Dirt
People arriving undocumented on a boats and getting let in are spitting in the faces of people who immigrated or seek refugee status and moved their family to australia through the proper channels.
It's a tricky situation but we cant just let anyone who turns up on a boat waltz in, give them a house, a car and well wishes.

Australia, im not too worried about being labelled racist, i know that im not; I don't believe its an issue of race, it doesnt matter where illegal immigrants come from - Americans and Europeans make up a big portion of illegal immigration in australia, namely by overstaying visas.
I have close friends of all races, and judge people on their actions. I just believe the Australian Govt needs to look after australia's interests first.
We have two groups of immigrants coming into australia, those doing so legally, and those who are breaking our laws before they even get here.

There is no easy answer - i dont claim to have one, but Australia's becominging so PC that its harmfull to our own interests.
The problem is that in many cases - Sri Lanka being one recent example, there is no outbound refugee program due to political circumstances (namely that initiating one would insinuate that human rights abuses are being carried out by the Sri Lankan govt. on Tamils) this imaginary "queue" and "correct" procedure doesn't exist. If you are genuinely being persecuted for your race, religion, political affiliation, etc. It's not like you can sit around hoping one day the Australian government acknowledges the issues in your country and allocates aid to an outbound refugee program - as such your only option is to travel to a country where your status will be assessed.

Now if you're genuinely being persecuted by your government it's not like you can apply for a passport get it through the mail in 6 weeks, then buy a plane ticket, rock up at the airport with no visa and fly on over. I whole heartedly agree that we need to properly assess these people's stories for authenticity but acting from the outset like they are freeloading criminals is a pretty clear cut violation of human rights - doing it on offshore islands is needlessly expensive and stupid.
 

brisneyland

Likes Dirt
I know that, you know that, Bris knows that. I just thought it odd that Brisneyland expected me to have ESP and assume he was referring to he city the HQ of the relavent organisation was in rather than the more common reference to the Geneva convention. We're on the internet, these things get lost in translation.:)
Sorry, it was an obscure reference. I've been there is all.
 

Axumis

Squid
I dont really care about the whole immigrant thing. The only thing that shits me is trying to do group work at uni when you get put in a group of non english speakers (typically asian) and you end up having to do the whole assignment yourself because they dont understand shit and it would take longer to explain it to them than to do it yourself.

So far as the election goes.... Rudd; Meh, he just got the worst possible time to get elected, and I would rather give him another go considering how well the government handled the GFC, than to give Abbott a way to force his ridiculous ideals upon a trying to be progressive nation with poor figureheads.

Then again, if he got in, there might actually be riots and political uproar, which would make the news more interesting for once.
 

ozz

Likes Bikes
I see this argument a lot and I don't understand it. Are people actually concerned that legitimate immigrants, applying through the normal channels, might have their application delayed because of these so called 'illegal' immigrants?

I don't see how such people can claim to have so much compassion for 'legal' refugees and then quite happily allow our government to incarcerate others.

It's illogical.

I agree with you that it's a difficult situation without an easy answer, and nor do I have one. I just know that this is not it.

Say you and a mate both want to buy a new car, you work and save up to buy the car, your mate walks in, takes it, and gets away with it



Arete - i see where your coming from and the problem it poses, maybe it would be possible to escape the hostile environment to a surrounding comparitively friendly country with such systems in place. Although that poses the question, if they are fleeing for their lives then why do they flee right past a number of comparitively friendly places all the way to australia?

I saw a figure that 90 something percent of people who actually arrived by boat under the howard govt got processed and let into australia with refugee status; what that system did do well though, is act as a deterant.

Enough about the illegal immigration issue though. lets move on
 

Australia

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Dude
We signed
http://www.unhcr.org/3b66c2aa10.html
that (PS look at article 31 and 32...)


and read this.
https://www.getup.org.au/files/campaigns/asylum_myths_factsheet.pdf

Don't tell me that is bullshit, because they are just as willing to shoot down labour or liberal, so it is not biased (look at the ETS campaign and the Internet censorship).
You just cited Get Up as an impartial source. You are either too much of a fanatic to hear reason or too damn silly to figure it out.

Any debate with you will be fruitless. Go ahead, vote Greens/Labour, I'm not going to waste my time reasoning with you.

The problem is that in many cases - Sri Lanka being one recent example, there is no outbound refugee program due to political circumstances (namely that initiating one would insinuate that human rights abuses are being carried out by the Sri Lankan govt. on Tamils) this imaginary "queue" and "correct" procedure doesn't exist. If you are genuinely being persecuted for your race, religion, political affiliation, etc. It's not like you can sit around hoping one day the Australian government acknowledges the issues in your country and allocates aid to an outbound refugee program - as such your only option is to travel to a country where your status will be assessed.

Now if you're genuinely being persecuted by your government it's not like you can apply for a passport get it through the mail in 6 weeks, then buy a plane ticket, rock up at the airport with no visa and fly on over. I whole heartedly agree that we need to properly assess these people's stories for authenticity but acting from the outset like they are freeloading criminals is a pretty clear cut violation of human rights - doing it on offshore islands is needlessly expensive and stupid.
You raise an excellent example. Sri Lanka. (I dont want to sound condascending, so if I come across as such on the internet I'm sorry) Please look at a world map. Find Sri Lanka. Now tell me why if you were GENUINELY concerned about political persecution, and getting out of Sri Lanka was your ONLY goal (not say to get a better life, or suckle on another countries welfare system) Why the hell is your boat travelling in a South Easterly direction???? Please look at a map - don't just naysay my arguement. I think perhaps a lot of people genuinely can't visualise what these 'helpless people' are undertaking, and thus how by arriving in Australia they are proving themself to be far from helpless.

Sorry, it was an obscure reference. I've been there is all.
As have I, while it was nice, I can't say I'm in a rush to visit again. Bern and Interlaken in the Bernese Oberland (German speaking part of the Country) on the other hand, are two of the most beautiful places in the world!

I dont really care about the whole immigrant thing. The only thing that shits me is trying to do group work at uni when you get put in a group of non english speakers (typically asian) and you end up having to do the whole assignment yourself because they dont understand shit and it would take longer to explain it to them than to do it yourself.

So far as the election goes.... Rudd; Meh, he just got the worst possible time to get elected, and I would rather give him another go considering how well the government handled the GFC, than to give Abbott a way to force his ridiculous ideals upon a trying to be progressive nation with poor figureheads.

Then again, if he got in, there might actually be riots and political uproar, which would make the news more interesting for once.
Its alarming how often I hear that. Fortunately my degree steers me clear of group work 95% of the time - but my cousin who was doing architecture got hammered because of it. He got put in a group with two Indian overseas student who couldnt afford to pay for materials for the models they were constructing. He bore the $700 cost for that semesters worth of assignments by himself.

edit: missed your post their ozz. I agree, am happy to move on also. (though I invite people to check the map, if not for an arguement here it is still enlightening. So, which parties stance on MTB do you guys like?
 
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Australia

Likes Bikes and Dirt
I think people underestimate what a powerful force for MTB advocacy having Tony Abbott as PM will be. The guy is a biking nut just like us:)

I'm unsure if the stance translates from State to Federal Party or not, but the NSW Liberal Party has been heavilly backing MTB development for a couple of years now. The Member for Davidson Jonothan O'Dea put a lot of political capital on the line when he backed the MTB side of the arguement at Manly Dam (he intervened personally to campaign against the council decision)

On the flip side, Kristina Keneally has just promised a whole bunch of bike paths in NSW on top of the last lot that were never built and the few that were built in an unsafe fashion
 

FR Drew

Not a custom title.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa.....

Oh, now that's funny!

Why do we need IMBA Australia when we'll have Abbott?
 

brisneyland

Likes Dirt
It's important to understand that cycling will be a sport restricted specifically to those that have already reproduced, due to the detrimental effect on mens sperm counts.

Then again, that might constitute birth control, so maybe all forms of cycling will be banned. Gotta keep the Catholic Church happy.
 

wespelarno

Likes Dirt
I currently have more faith in Rudd than Abbot. Rudd certainly hasn't pulled through on everything he promised, but he did a good job of keeping australia's economy going comparatively strongly during the recession. Having an economically astute leader still seems like a good thing as the world still isn't operating as smoothly financially as I would like. I haven't seen Abbot actually propose anything constructuve and significant. And I have no interest in anyone who combines politics and religion, that really is not what australia needs. That said, my knowledge of the whole system is still fairly limited, I am yet to be able to participate in a real election.
 

Australia

Likes Bikes and Dirt
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa.....

Oh, now that's funny!

Why do we need IMBA Australia when we'll have Abbott?
It's important to understand that cycling will be a sport restricted specifically to those that have already reproduced, due to the detrimental effect on mens sperm counts.

Then again, that might constitute birth control, so maybe all forms of cycling will be banned. Gotta keep the Catholic Church happy.
Come on guys - FOCUS - Constructive Forum responses please:)
 

'Ross

Eats Squid
The whole immigration issue is not one of great concern to me, but to me there are two issues: Human rights and all of that/and cost to the taxpayer.

It seems like the current system is the most costly idea you could have ever thought of (effectively babysitting/imprisoning everyone costing $80k a year per person)
And on a human rights/asylum/all that front, seems like nobody is really getting a good deal out of it.

Correct?


I predict that whatever the case, some kind of token 'crackdown' will occur, costing more money, and from what I here from a few international students I know is that getting a permanent visa is going to be really difficult.
 

Ek155

Likes Dirt
You just cited Get Up as an impartial source. You are either too much of a fanatic to hear reason or too damn silly to figure it out.

Any debate with you will be fruitless. Go ahead, vote Greens/Labour, I'm not going to waste my time reasoning with you.
Dude, I'm sorry but who are you to tell me that I am damn silly...you put yourself above me yet you have no clue who I am. Tell me, were you above the UN aswell? Because if you're above Get-up, and Get-up is sourcing from the UN, who do you think you are?

I am 100% sure that at Get-up they spend all day researching the facts and presenting a campaign in which they feel benefits the public. Do you spend all day researching facts? Or rely on Tony Abbott's ads?


You raise an excellent example. Sri Lanka. (I dont want to sound condascending, so if I come across as such on the internet I'm sorry) Please look at a world map. Find Sri Lanka. Now tell me why if you were GENUINELY concerned about political persecution, and getting out of Sri Lanka was your ONLY goal (not say to get a better life, or suckle on another countries welfare system) Why the hell is your boat travelling in a South Easterly direction???? Please look at a map - don't just naysay my arguement. I think perhaps a lot of people genuinely can't visualise what these 'helpless people' are undertaking, and thus how by arriving in Australia they are proving themself to be far from helpless.
You do sound condEscending (I thought law students could at least spell...?). If you were to leave a civil war ravaged country would you leave for a better life? Or would you leave for India, to live in poverty... Start using common sense please. You study economics...where the first assumption is that individuals make rational decisions that will be in their self interest. Now, would you rather live in India, or be definitely safe in Australia. If you head north west you hit Pakistan and the middle east...great. If you head east you hit Thailand and Burma...great. So tell me, what is the closest OECD country?


Its alarming how often I hear that. Fortunately my degree steers me clear of group work 95% of the time - but my cousin who was doing architecture got hammered because of it. He got put in a group with two Indian overseas student who couldnt afford to pay for materials for the models they were constructing. He bore the $700 cost for that semesters worth of assignments by himself.
I am alarmed at how racist this is. If you had moved to India, and you had no money, I am sure that you would expect help paying for Uni. The reason they have no money to pay for group assignments is because as international students they don't qualify for HECS, so they spend their money on actually paying for uni, and for living.


And this is why I am against compulsory voting. The people who accuse others of being some sterotype or another are typically the "close minded uninformed parrots for what their political masters tell them (read: idiots)" themselves that they rail against and denigrate at every opportunity.

Perhaps I could interest you in the book in my car at the moment. Its called a street directory, look up Killara, note the massive gulf between where I live and the Northern beaches. Then find yourself a copy of the cencus and land valuation data from the Ku-Ring-Gai council area... once you find where the average person has their million dollar mansion, tell me, I'd love to see it. I guess you're just living in the past (you know before the cold war ended) because when I look out my window, all I see is Medium-High density apartment blocks.

Have you ever been to a University? Given the drivel coming out of your mouth I sincerely doubt it - but I could be wrong. I stand out like a sore thumb in my law course as a likely liberal voter. But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story, will you? Your mate Joseph Stalin didn't.
Now, you accuse him of being one "who accuse others of being some sterotype or another are typically the "close minded uninformed parrots for what their political masters tell them (read: idiots)" themselves that they rail against and denigrate at every opportunity."

what did you do to me before? Exactly assumed me of being some sterEotype...so you calling yourself an idiot?

So about Killara...on the famous 'north shore.' The home of many of Sydney's exclusive private schools? So, I didn't look at the cenSus, but i did look at domain.com. http://www.domain.com.au/public/suburbprofile.aspx?mode=buy&suburb=KILLARA&postcode=2071
Where the average selling price through the past 12 months has been what? $1,462,000. $1.4MILLION... and the average selling price of a "Medium-High density apartment block" is $805,000.
No, not a rich area.

Now, putting yourself above people that don't go to uni is fun isn't it? What uni do you go to? (Sydney I'm guessing...).
Lay off, - Constructive forum responses remember...

And comparing anyone online to Joseph Stalin is ludicrous. Please don't do that again. It's embarrassing.

You know what the difference between Australia and the rest of the OECD countries was before the GFC. We had a 1% of GDP government surplus. 24 of the 27 other country had defecits ranging from 5% to 11% of GDP. Look at the state of their economys, look at ours. I think its pretty clear who we can thank for spending 10 years eliminating 97bn of labour debt and preparing our economy to whether this storm.
If you study economics and you don't know that the boom that Howard relied on was created by Keating, what's the point?
 
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