Flats V's Clipless

[burkie]

Have been doing a bit of reading on bikejames.com and found the flat pedal articles on there quite interesting. There's a lot of info on there, but basically he says that clipless doesn't offer much advantage for the average rider and that the human body is not designed to produce power in a sitting position, so you're better off standing to produce power which voids most of the clipless pedals advantages. Obviously this is not practical for longer rides/races, but for the average punter going for a 30-40 km weekend ride with the mates it may have some merit. I've been getting a bit of knee pain lately and was thinking of giving flats a go for a while. I ride mainly XC courses (Appin, Nowra). Is anyone using flats for XC, and if so how have you found them?

 

[MATTY R]

so you're better off standing to produce power which voids most of the clipless pedals advantages.

Why would standing void the advantages of clipless?

Ive been riding with clips for a few years now and i wouldnt be able to go back to flats, but really its a personal choice. There is no right or wrong answer.

You say you are getting knee pain, Are the pedals/cleats worn out? Have you tried a different cleat position? I fiddled around with my cleats recently and it made a world of difference to comfort.

 

[jl.]

It's worth trying. I went to flats after riding clipless for 13 years. The reason I did it was that I moved to the UK and I was sick of them clogging with crap.

I'm a non-competitive rider and I do mainly XC type rides with some more difficult technical stuff. Flats were scary at first as it just didn't feel very secure but they feel fine now. My gut feeling is that clips are more efficient but I prefer the flats for all but road and very simple off road stuff.

 

[Ezreal2001]

Have been doing a bit of reading on bikejames.com and found the flat pedal articles on there quite interesting. There's a lot of info on there, but basically he says that clipless doesn't offer much advantage for the average rider and that the human body is not designed to produce power in a sitting position, so you're better off standing to produce power which voids most of the clipless pedals advantages. Obviously this is not practical for longer rides/races, but for the average punter going for a 30-40 km weekend ride with the mates it may have some merit. I've been getting a bit of knee pain lately and was thinking of giving flats a go for a while. I ride mainly XC courses (Appin, Nowra). Is anyone using flats for XC, and if so how have you found them?

Have noticed a bit of discussion about flats versus clipless.

For a variety of reasons I've allways used flats, I ride alot of technical terain and I like being able to put a foot down whenever (yes I'm slack) - I've no doubt I'd get more power of clipless - but right now I wearing five tens which stick really well and I like the feeling of working with my peddles.

As for the knee pain, friends have swapped over to flats in the hope reducing knee pains, but I think you should get someone to have a look at your peddling, in particular - whats your cadence and are you pushing the bigger rings this could contribute to your knee pain; and have a chat with a physio.

 

[Norco Maniac]

You say you are getting knee pain

i have the common Morton's Foot syndrome, which at least 45% of the population have. short first metatarsal regardless of big toe length means inner knee pain when riding. i wear generic orthotics in my cleat shoes when riding and have no knee pain when i do.



i'm a bodyworker by profession, happy to discuss foot geometry with you....

 

[Nerf Herder]

My laymans understanding:
Standing whilst climbing [produces] more energy, but also wastes more energy, due to breaking traction ... which is reduced (not eliminated) by shifting your body back and forth, which, wastes more energy, and upsets the rhythm of your cadence, which further wastes energy.

The benefit of Clipless is that you can stay seated and generate the same (or consistent) cadence, with reduced body shifting.

Staying seated whilst climbing has been found to be the most economical method for dual suspension rigs.

My Personal Experience:
I tend to push my pedals forward (starting prior to the crank arm coming vertical) and down ... and rarely pull up (unless I'm tired).

In technical terrain, especially technical climbs ... being clipped in allows you to bounce or lift the rear, allows you to half pedal at more varied angles, and forces you to try harder so as to avoid having to unclip (you all know what that means ... oh oh, can't get shoe out ... tiimmmberrrrrr)

When I'm tired, I actually pull up more to assist (I know its counter intuitive, but thats what I do for some reason).

With flats, I can follow this same stroke when I'm fresh (and with 5.10s) but not when I'm fatigued, which doesn't take long. (5.10s are heavier then clipless shoes in the majority of occasions, and its rotating weight, which is bad)

In flats, when I'm fatigued, I smash more, and my feet slip off more often, which means Mince Meat Shins. (leg armour is hot, which is bad and smelly).

Similarly when fatigued, I tend to bounce more, due to poor line choice and or poor pedal pressure ... more mince or worse, smashing the knee onto the stem ... ouch.

Sooo, personally being clipped has more pluses IMO.

Re: Knee Pain ...
Have you got your seat up as high and as comfortable as it can go ?? More seat height reduces the amount your knee has to bend ... whilst also helping with the pedal stroke.

With my pedal stroke and being clipped in, my weight is transferring to my other leg (power), as my leg (returning) is shifting towards the vertical or bottom of the stroke, which means I'm not putting pressure on the joint.

I'm not sure if I'm unique with this stroke, but from my understanding this is the theory behind elliptical chain rings, which apparently the majority of people, including professionals can benefit from (a whole different thread I know).

Lastly, what pedal system were you using when suffering your knee pain ?? I presume it wasn't Time or Crank Brothers ?? If I'm right ... maybe worth trying the Time Atacs ... you can get the Aliums for dirt cheap on ebay.

Anyway ... good luck, maybe somethings in there re, technique and or equipment choice to consider, whilst your on Christmas holidays

 

[Norco Maniac]

Nerf, you're a man after my own heart. i love talking body tech...

 

[redbruce]

Have been doing a bit of reading on bikejames.com and found the flat pedal articles on there quite interesting. There's a lot of info on there, but basically he says that clipless doesn't offer much advantage for the average rider and that the human body is not designed to produce power in a sitting position, so you're better off standing to produce power which voids most of the clipless pedals advantages. Obviously this is not practical for longer rides/races, but for the average punter going for a 30-40 km weekend ride with the mates it may have some merit. I've been getting a bit of knee pain lately and was thinking of giving flats a go for a while. I ride mainly XC courses (Appin, Nowra). Is anyone using flats for XC, and if so how have you found them?

Suggest you do a bit more reading.

You have only quoted one source of this alternative view. He is entitled to his view but there are thousands out there to the contrary.

Human body not suited to deliver power seated - so how have cyclists got by for the last 200 years, or rowers, rock climbers, swimmers, etc. the human body is adaptable.

Standing making clipless redundant - check out performance BMX riders, clipless now de rigeur.

If you have knee pain it is either overuse, old age, or incorrect bike fit. Get it checked out.

I use shimano clipless for my road bike and MTB, flats for BMX (no encumbrance if I need to step off the bike) and have done for 30 years. My choice and both suit and enhance my (middling) performance in those disciplines but for different reasons.

My son uses Time pedals on his MTB, BMX and road bikes because he values more float and better mud clearance. However we both have straight forward fit, ie no toe in or out as we pedal.

Its your choice. just make sure you have all the facts to base it on.

 

[FR Drew]

From someone who doesn't care about speed:

I ride primarily to relax and having the ability to dab a foot without worry/thought means that I choose to ride on platform pedals (with 5.10's).

I don't for a second believe that I'm even close to as quick as I could be with the power transfer advantages that clipless brings (provided that one is willing to work on their stroke and utilise the potential to its full).

Heck, I ride singlespeed rigid as well and I know that I'd be faster on a top spec Anthem with all the fruit.

Depends a lot to me if you're riding for recreation or if you're riding for sport. XC for recreation, flats are fine, for sport, I'd say get serious and get clipped in.

 

[burkie]

Why would standing void the advantages of clipless?

Because one of the advantages of clipless is being able to push across the top and pull across the bottom, but when standing you tend to focus on just pushing down.

Suggest you do a bit more reading.

You have only quoted one source of this alternative view. He is entitled to his view but there are thousands out there to the contrary.

Human body not suited to deliver power seated - so how have cyclists got by for the last 200 years, or rowers, rock climbers, swimmers, etc. the human body is adaptable.

The most powerful lower body movement comes from hip extension which is best achieved from the posterior chain (ass and hamstrings). Watch an Olympic lifter doing a clean or snatch and their torso will be dead upright. When in the seated cycling position the hip flexors are shortened which rolls the pelvis fwd and takes the posterior chain out of the equation.
Obvious we are talking about cycling here which is thousands of repetitions, not one max effort. Watching elite mtbers climb hills though, I haven't seen too many sitting down. They always seem to be standing up, powering up the hill flat out.

If you have knee pain it is either overuse, old age, or incorrect bike fit. Get it checked out.

Probably all of the above. Although I have played around with bike fit a bit. I was getting pain behind my knee, but moved the cleats back and the seat fwd which stopped that, but moved the pain to the lateral ligaments. I can usually get this out with a lot of foam rolling on the IT band and calf muscles, but it's not much fun.
I've got shimano pedals and cleats don't seem too worn.

 

[Bjorn]

I used to be a flats rider off road and toe-clips on the road; yes I'm from a previous generation. About 15 -16 years ago I was working as a courier and looking to improve my efficiency while still getting on and off the bike easily. More efficient meant more money. I changed over to clipless and haven't looked back; I can put the same peak power out on flats or clipless, but I can put efficient power out consistently, far more easily with clipless.
As Nerf said, you need to set your cleats to compensate for any toe in or toe out and position them correctly side to side or you will have intense pain in odd places that seem unrelated to your feet. Also ensure your seat height is spot on or you'll have knee issues.
I use flats for going up the street or tootling about with my son, but if I want to go hard (DH included) I'm clipped in.

 

[burkie]

My laymans understanding:
Standing whilst climbing [produces] more energy, but also wastes more energy, due to breaking traction ... which is reduced (not eliminated) by shifting your body back and forth, which, wastes more energy, and upsets the rhythm of your cadence, which further wastes energy.

The benefit of Clipless is that you can stay seated and generate the same (or consistent) cadence, with reduced body shifting.

Staying seated whilst climbing has been found to be the most economical method for dual suspension rigs.

My Personal Experience:
I tend to push my pedals forward (starting prior to the crank arm coming vertical) and down ... and rarely pull up (unless I'm tired).

In technical terrain, especially technical climbs ... being clipped in allows you to bounce or lift the rear, allows you to half pedal at more varied angles, and forces you to try harder so as to avoid having to unclip (you all know what that means ... oh oh, can't get shoe out ... tiimmmberrrrrr)

When I'm tired, I actually pull up more to assist (I know its counter intuitive, but thats what I do for some reason).

With flats, I can follow this same stroke when I'm fresh (and with 5.10s) but not when I'm fatigued, which doesn't take long. (5.10s are heavier then clipless shoes in the majority of occasions, and its rotating weight, which is bad)

In flats, when I'm fatigued, I smash more, and my feet slip off more often, which means Mince Meat Shins. (leg armour is hot, which is bad and smelly).

Similarly when fatigued, I tend to bounce more, due to poor line choice and or poor pedal pressure ... more mince or worse, smashing the knee onto the stem ... ouch.

Sooo, personally being clipped has more pluses IMO.

Re: Knee Pain ...
Have you got your seat up as high and as comfortable as it can go ?? More seat height reduces the amount your knee has to bend ... whilst also helping with the pedal stroke.

With my pedal stroke and being clipped in, my weight is transferring to my other leg (power), as my leg (returning) is shifting towards the vertical or bottom of the stroke, which means I'm not putting pressure on the joint.

I'm not sure if I'm unique with this stroke, but from my understanding this is the theory behind elliptical chain rings, which apparently the majority of people, including professionals can benefit from (a whole different thread I know).

Lastly, what pedal system were you using when suffering your knee pain ?? I presume it wasn't Time or Crank Brothers ?? If I'm right ... maybe worth trying the Time Atacs ... you can get the Aliums for dirt cheap on ebay.

Anyway ... good luck, maybe somethings in there re, technique and or equipment choice to consider, whilst your on Christmas holidays

I try and pedal in the same manner ie. start trying to put the power down as I push across the top. But as I tire it seems to move more into just pushing on the down stoke. I've heard of a few people saying the Time Atacs are good for knee pain as they have more float. The fact that the pain is in the lateral ligaments seems to me at least, to point towards a toe in/out problem. I think I've got the seat height nailed.

 

[powermutant]

>I ride mainly XC courses (Appin, Nowra). Is anyone using flats for XC, and if so how have you found them?

I've just started chopping and changing. Even as a punter I'm noticably quicker clipped in, but I always have more fun on flats.

Give it a go. It's hard to beat sticking a foot out and getting your drift on. Appin is prime for such shenanigans.

 

[beaver44]

How about getting your drift on while clipped in? i think that beats dangling a foot out in the air...As for the OP, flats are generally flat and clipless generally have clips so try both and use what you like...

 

[epic09]

I ride XC mainly and I am running flats on my specialized epic. Everybody I ride with uses clipless, also everybody I ride with tends to eat dirt a fair bit. I have no problem with putting the power down in short sharp climbs.

Just bought a new set of Wellgo B124 pedals which should help out a lot with grip, especially in winter when lots of mud and shit around. If you have a correct pedal "stroke" and your feet aren't sliding off the pedals I don't see a reason to use clipless.

 

[driftking]

Why would standing void the advantages of clipless?

As already stated clips allow you to put the power down through pushing and pulling through the whole pedal rotation, however there are other advantages, if their only advantage was while sitting then Dh riders would not use them as we/they rarely if ever sit down on a run.
Although xc is differant there are still advantages of running clips even while standing, some people say it helps throw the bike around a bit more, hopping logs or obstacle's becomes much easier and off course the obvious it keeps those feet glued to the pedals when it gets rough which is one less thing to worry about.
personally i run flats although the advantages of clips i have not had issues with feet using 5 10's and good pedals, also I am more confident on the flats, there are always advantages but then again wc's have been won on flats (in dh) so i think there is alot of personal opinion in the matter of what to choose.

 

[Norco Maniac]

so i think there is alot of personal opinion in the matter of what to choose.

it really does come down to what you're comfortable riding with. i use clipless on my race bike, and flats on my hardtail but will progress to clipless there as i get more confidence on that 17kg bike. it's just me. i love the control that being clipped in gives me on my race bike, but the sudden dismounts do leave something to be desired...

 

[burkie]

also I am more confident on the flats, there are always advantages but then again wc's have been won on flats (in dh) so i think there is alot of personal opinion in the matter of what to choose.

This may turn into a holden v's ford debate with personal preference.
Although I have not really used flats a lot, I think it would definitely inspire more confidence, especially with mastering such skills as the manual and jumping.

 

[driftking]

This may turn into a holden v's ford debate with personal preference.
Although I have not really used flats a lot, I think it would definitely inspire more confidence, especially with mastering such skills as the manual and jumping.

I find my confidence comes from the fact I can bail off the bike if needed where clips tend to get into a bit more trouble if you happen to stay clipped in. If I was riding xc or road I would probably use clips, however for DH im not yet sure if i want to go down that route,The argument could be made that you are more stable with clips therefore giving you more confidence on rough terain and that in DH you should not be thinking about crashing but staying positive. I havent had much experience on clips so its deffinatly something I want to try out.

That is another benifit of going with flats you are forced to develop your skills without the aid of been clipped in. My mate has gone from riding clips to flats to get back to the basic's and learn to not rely on been clipped in.

My opinion on it is dont have a bias opinion until you try both. I am open to trying clips and am aware of the benifits of both flats and clips. There is so much personal preferance with pedal style that you can only really take on board the pros, cons and other riders experiance as a referance of notice and then ride them both for a while yourself to find out what works. From what i can tell you're not asking to buy some but its what I would tell anyone contemplating the two.

 

[burkie]

I find my confidence comes from the fact I can bail off the bike if needed where clips tend to get into a bit more trouble if you happen to stay clipped in. If I was riding xc or road I would probably use clips, however for DH im not yet sure if i want to go down that route,The argument could be made that you are more stable with clips therefore giving you more confidence on rough terain and that in DH you should not be thinking about crashing but staying positive. I havent had much experience on clips so its deffinatly something I want to try out.

That is another benifit of going with flats you are forced to develop your skills without the aid of been clipped in. My mate has gone from riding clips to flats to get back to the basic's and learn to not rely on been clipped in.

My opinion on it is dont have a bias opinion until you try both. I am open to trying clips and am aware of the benifits of both flats and clips. There is so much personal preferance with pedal style and choice that you can only really take on board the pros and cons and then ride them both for a while.

I guess that's the reason for my post in the first place. You seem to get sold down a path on mtb'ing. If you ride XC/Enduro you will be clipped in and have 2.1 tyres and 4 inches of travel. If you free ride you will have xy tires and xy travel etc. I'm just not sold. I'm sure there are a lot of guys out there who would benefit from riding wider tyres on bikes with more travel and flat pedals which in the overall scheme of things would not affect their speed that much.
Yes I know I posted this in the XC/Enduro section, but at the end of the day that's what I ride, and I also won't be troubling English or Gordo for a place.