Help with wheel building Canberra

Litenbror

Likes Dirt
I am looking at swapping the hubs from my 27.5 Dt Swiss M1700 wheel set with my new 29 Dt Swiss M1900 off the new bike. The M1700 are ratchet drive so it's a big improvement but I was hoping to do it myself. After having a tinker in the garage the other night I have realised this is not as easy as I was hoping it would be. From my measurements the hubs are the same size so the spokes should be able to be reused (I know I know a lot of people don't want to reuse spokes but I do) so I was hoping it would just be a quick twist with the nipple wrench and swap swap, no such luck.

I'm thinking I need more than just a nipple wrench after rounding off a few of the torx nipples so long story short anyone in Canberra willing to help me out with some tools and show me some basic wheel building?
 

Oddjob

Eats Squid
You are in for a lot of swearing. The standard nipples on Dt pre-built wheels are alloy sqourx pro-lock. You can get a e-torx e5 bit off ebay or the specific nipple driver from Park or Dt.

The nipples will be hard to undo and will be useless once undone. So budget for new brass nipples for both wheels.

Once thats done you need to swap spokes, re-lace and then re tension and true.

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Litenbror

Likes Dirt
Yeah I'm learning that Dt Swiss sqourx pro-lock nipples are a nightmare and to be honest I will be happy to get rid of them for something that is easier to repair in the future. Any recommendations on nipples and where to get them from?

I feel alright lacing the hubs once I have the nightmare nipples off but I think I'm going to need some help with the tensioning and truing.
 

Zaf

Gearbox Frother
I would offer to loan you my squorx driver, but I'm about to use it to get my G13 up and running. They're actually amazing to work with the right tools, and the wheels build really well with them. That being said, that experience has always been with J-bend spokes for me, not straight pulls, and any locking nipple on straightpull without a good set of tools for holding the spoke become a real headache.

DT-Swiss pro-lock brass nipples are fantastic industry standard for good reason.
Also:
https://www.parktool.com/wta

Use this, and just usual advice. Take your time, get the lacing correct, keep your adjustments small, have a common start point at each time (nipple hole) and only ever work on ONE thing at a time:
  • Dishing
  • True
  • Tension
Rinse and repeat, then add in some aggressive de-tensioning when it starts coming into shape and keep doing it until you can abuse the rim without it changing any of these settings.
 

Litenbror

Likes Dirt
I would offer to loan you my squorx driver, but I'm about to use it to get my G13 up and running. They're actually amazing to work with the right tools, and the wheels build really well with them. That being said, that experience has always been with J-bend spokes for me, not straight pulls, and any locking nipple on straightpull without a good set of tools for holding the spoke become a real headache.

DT-Swiss pro-lock brass nipples are fantastic industry standard for good reason.
Also:
https://www.parktool.com/wta

Use this, and just usual advice. Take your time, get the lacing correct, keep your adjustments small, have a common start point at each time (nipple hole) and only ever work on ONE thing at a time:
  • Dishing
  • True
  • Tension
Rinse and repeat, then add in some aggressive de-tensioning when it starts coming into shape and keep doing it until you can abuse the rim without it changing any of these settings.
Thanks Zaf I have a set of Dt 350 classics that I was going to build up in 29 for the new bike but the $$ don't make sense once I buy rims, spokes, nipples etc and I can buy new spank wheels for $550ish. I was hoping to get the nice wheels off the old bike to play nice with the new bike but now I just considering cutting the spokes and starting fresh.
 

Oddjob

Eats Squid
Yeah I'm learning that Dt Swiss sqourx pro-lock nipples are a nightmare and to be honest I will be happy to get rid of them for something that is easier to repair in the future. Any recommendations on nipples and where to get them from?

I feel alright lacing the hubs once I have the nightmare nipples off but I think I'm going to need some help with the tensioning and truing.
Sapim Polyax tend to be cheaper than dt swiss and have a better head profile imo.

You can get them cheaply from Bike Components but the 20 euro postage is a killer if you aren't getting anything else. Sjscycles are more expensive but the postage is less.

If Musson is TLDR.
  1. Make sure spokes are correct length. I usually round up to the nearest 2mm from what the spokecalc spreadsheet spits out.
  2. Lube spokes and nipples. I use lanotec.
  3. Lace spokes as per https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html.
  4. Wind up nipples to consistent thread with nipple driver until spokes are no longer loose.
  5. Do rough lateral then radial true.
  6. Tighten nipples one full revolution at a time as you go around the wheel until close to target tension. Hand stress the spokes every revolution.
  7. Bring all spokes up to target tension. Spokecalc will give you ratio between left and right. I usually aim for 120kgf but I'm fat. Hand stress spokes.
  8. Do final radial then lateral true.
Tools:
Stand
Spoke key
Nipple driver
Cotton tip to insert nipples
Tension meter


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SummitFever

Likes Bikes and Dirt
Don't cut the spokes. Nothing wrong with reusing them.

Don't use any sort of locking nipple. Total waste of time. Don't use threadlocker either.

I can give some ordinary DT Swiss brass ones if you need some. Im in Carntburra too.
 

Boom King

Wheel size expert
Spokes and nipples from these guys.


Cheap, reasonable postage and not too long a wait either.

Around $21.50 for 70 silver Sapim Polyax brass nipples shipped to your door. More expensive for black.
 
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Litenbror

Likes Dirt
Don't cut the spokes. Nothing wrong with reusing them.

Don't use any sort of locking nipple. Total waste of time. Don't use threadlocker either.

I can give some ordinary DT Swiss brass ones if you need some. Im in Carntburra too.
Thanks @SummitFever I might take you up on your offer depending on how long postage is going to take, problem is I'll need 56 + mistakes. Looks like if I can get the dt swiss nipples off I can do most of the work myself it will just be tension meter I don't have and the truing stand I will have to dodge up. If I can get them close maybe I'll take them to the LBS to finish off.
 

teK--

Eats Squid
If you change nipples but reuse spokes then they must be the same engagement depth otherwise your spoke lengths will be out.

You may be better off just going new spokes to be honest. Doing a half rebuild or anything other than a clean new build is more difficult when you are learning. Esp. With prolocked nipples and spokes, without all the usual tools etc

It is when you have done a couple of builds and understand the principles that you can easily start taking shortcuts and reuse parts etc.
 

creaky

The obviative
If you change nipples but reuse spokes then they must be the same engagement depth otherwise your spoke lengths will be out.
Can you clarify what you mean by this? Are you just saying that the rim ERDs and the hub flange spacings must be the same? If so, the OP suggests that they are.
 

teK--

Eats Squid
Can you clarify what you mean by this? Are you just saying that the rim ERDs and the hub flange spacings must be the same? If so, the OP suggests that they are.
He also talks about replacing the nipples . The thread engagement depth of nipples are different depending on which brand you use and within some brands (e.g. dt Swiss) it varies depending on external nipple length. This is why when you calculate spoke length for a new build you always measure using the specific nipples you are including in the build.
 

Oddjob

Eats Squid
He also talks about replacing the nipples . The thread engagement depth of nipples are different depending on which brand you use and within some brands (e.g. dt Swiss) it varies depending on external nipple length. This is why when you calculate spoke length for a new build you always measure using the specific nipples you are including in the build.
But a standard 14g, 12mm brass nipple is going to be pretty close regardless of whether its Sapim, Dt or Pillar. There's just not that much room for deviation.

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teK--

Eats Squid
But a standard 14g, 12mm brass nipple is going to be pretty close regardless its Sapim, Dt or Pillar. There's just not that much room for deviation.

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Going from a dt squorx (prohead) to a sapim polyax is same face profile but very different threaded depth. Squorx to standard dt nipple or DT Prohead (non squorx) also can be different by a few mm depending on which length you go with.

I have found the price and availability of sapim polyax to be much better than squorx , but if are reusing spokes from a squorx build they will be too long as the threads start at an earlier point within the sapim nipples, and you'll bottom out before reaching tension.
 

Zaf

Gearbox Frother
@Tak is spot on.
The squorx is a 2.0/15mm nipple and the standards come in 1.8-2.0/12mm, and the squorx is threaded for a deeper segment so you can actually go longer spokes and get more engagement on them.



With regards to pro-lock nipples, tighten first to break the locking compound, then release. I personally have used pro-locks for all but one of my wheel builds and not had an issue with them. I don't fully understand the animosity people have for them, it's a pretty small thing and if you're aggressively de-tensioning the wheel during the building process, you shouldn't need to tweak the nipples after regardless of what type you've used.

What I will say is: Wheel building is a peaceful process!!
Don't get frustrated, don't skip steps, get your rhythm and follow it. Measure twice, cut once kind of deal.
Lace spoke in hub, grease shoulders of nipple, find spoke hole on rim, engage nipple, lace spoke in hub...
 

hellmansam

Likes Dirt
Ahem : old fart has questions
What's the goodness of DT Squorx and other types of new fangled nipples ?
@Zaf when you say "detensioning" is that what some people call stress relieving ?
 
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SummitFever

Likes Bikes and Dirt
The torx drive on the top of the nipple makes its easier for machine building of wheels. Will also make it easier to build by hand, but DT swiss will not care about that. The standard slotted nipple head is like a slotted screw head. A PITA compared to a phillips, torx, allen head when you want to drive it with some sort of driver.
 

Zaf

Gearbox Frother
Ahem : old fart has questions
What's the goodness of DT Squorx and other types of new fangled nipples ?
From a building perspective; you use a very neat nipple driver and build through the rim holes, not the spoke side of the wheel with a key (four sided can tools, especially freshly machined can be quite fiddle and tight on the nipples).
It's actually a really neat system, and everything is logically in the right place from that angle (Lefty loosey, righty tighty).

From a structual point of view, it's a longer nipple with more threading, so if you're rounding up on your spoke lengths you get more thread engagement.
 

teK--

Eats Squid
Ahem : old fart has questions
What's the goodness of DT Squorx and other types of new fangled nipples ?
@Zaf when you say "detensioning" is that what some people call stress relieving ?
Also due to the squorx interface there is a reduced chance of rounding off nipples if must insist using aluminium on higher tension builds, or when maintaining wheels later on.

The only downside is cost I recall locally they cost over $1 per nipple which is crazy.

I just go brass sapim polyax nipples with the DT washers which gives most of the benefits for less than 10c each.
 

Zaf

Gearbox Frother
@Zaf when you say "detensioning" is that what some people call stress relieving ?
Yeah, stress relieving!
Don't know where I picked up calling it that. Nice soft handled tool or length of wood and lever the shit out of them. Keep bending and deforming the wheel as much as you can until you do it and the tensions and true are unaffected by you doing it. Stick a fork in her (stick her in a fork?), she's ready.
 
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