Increasing 'snappy' response of hydraulic brakes

[noddy]

I made this chart comparing some systems when I was lookig for more powerful brakes. the "linearity" is not realy what you're after since its only applies at full engagement. dosn't take into acount servo wave etc. basicly is a chart of ultimate power only. still thought it might be useful though.

 

[pharmaboy]

Sure, but way back when they *really* were rubbish. It will take a long time for Sram to come back from the dark days of the turkey gobble, in spite of the fact that they've finally come up with some really good brakes.

Yeah, reputations are earned - elixirs and their noise destroyed the avid brand, while I have heard good things about the guides, I am not having any troubles with XTs and so have no reason to change - even if I did, I suspect I'd just get another set of XTs - I know them, can bleed them, have crap loads of mineral oil and spares etc.

Guides on the other hand are more expensive and require a learning curve for bleeding etc. A fantastic upgrade for someone on elixirs no doubt, but for someone on shimano I find it unlikely there is any benefit for the 50% price increase to get guides.

For stupid ideas - CPS bolts......

 

[The Duckmeister]

Anyone who says anything about 'cheap' Shimano brakes with "nuff said" as a conclusion can't be trusted with a meaningful opinion about any other brands.

Current SLX brakes are for the most part identical to XT's which are widely regarded - among the MTB press, not just internet hacks like us - as one of the best brakes available. The differences between the two amount to two bolts and the finish of the reservoir cap..... SLX pads are held in by a simple split pin rather than the bolted XT pads, and SLX lacks the contact adjustment bolt. Some people cite differing OEM pads as a model difference, but given there are four interchangeable pad options (resin/metal, finned or finless in each compound), I don't consider this to be a defining difference.

So if someone mentions "cheap" Shimano brakes, it's a fairly valid (even if somewhat brief) observation that you can get fucking good components without breaking the bank.

 

[GeoffRidesBikes]

I've ridden Hayes 9's, Avid juicy 5's, Code 7's, SRAM Elixirs, some shitty Tektro's, Hope Mono M4's, Shimano XT, Deore and current gen SLX.

At present, rolling the current gen SLX and probably wouldn't change for the world!

 

[bell.cameron]

I've ridden Hayes 9's, Avid juicy 5's, Code 7's, SRAM Elixirs, some shitty Tektro's, Hope Mono M4's, Shimano XT, Deore and current gen SLX.

At present, rolling the current gen SLX and probably wouldn't change for the world!

Never really like my 2012 SLX's, they seemed to have good bite but not enough power (yes i know that makes no sense but best way i can explain it.) Running Saints m820's not and they are mint bar the servowave scvaring the shit out of me occasionally

 

[Pebble]

My first brakes were Hayes Sole, I reckon anything is better than that!
Thereafter probably due to frequenting this forum too much, my next few were Shimano XT's...replaced Juicy 3's straight away off a brand new bike once even, I didn't even give them a chance though, just liked the feel of my old XT's in comparison.

My current bike has Avid Juicy 3's, been problem free for almost 2 yrs now, although the front brake kind of stops working when it's 40 degrees outside, I guess that's an indication that perhaps it could use a bleed soon. Oh and when riding in the rain they have the loudest squeal!

Funny thought a while back servo wave sounded like the next greatest thing, now I'm reading people starting to prefer brakes without it? I had pre servo generation of XT's.

Something I've noticed is that shimano brakes seem a bit more compact and probably lighter than Avids. My kids bikes have Tektro Auriga, seem pretty good for entry level, damn better than hayes soles I had on my first dually!

I guess if OP doesn't like how his brakes feel, even though they have been bled etc, the only other option is to try something else.

 

[link1896]

Hi Guys,

Wondering how to make my Avid hydraulics more responsive?

Rode a mates bike with XTR's and they are far snappier while mine feel soft (like the lever moves a lot further before the brakes lock) in particular the front- not necessarily spongy, just no where near as grabby/ responsive.

Thought I'd remedy with new pads and a bleed but they still feel soft- I thought the bleed might fill the lines and therefore increase the pressure/ response. No significant difference...


Any tips (please don't just say "Shimano is better")

It's decision time dude. Are you going to:

Keep XO trails, replace pads for organics, replace rotors too, or go shimano?

 

[Mitch243]

Hi Guys,

Wondering how to make my Avid hydraulics more responsive?

Rode a mates bike with XTR's and they are far snappier while mine feel soft (like the lever moves a lot further before the brakes lock) in particular the front- not necessarily spongy, just no where near as grabby/ responsive.

Thought I'd remedy with new pads and a bleed but they still feel soft- I thought the bleed might fill the lines and therefore increase the pressure/ response. No significant difference...


Any tips (please don't just say "Shimano is better")

Only read first few posts and the last few. Short attention span but thought I'd lay a thought anyway.

Shimano brakes typically have a harder bite point that Avids because they have a cam driven lever, giving them a lower hydraulic ratio at the point of engagement, and closing the pad gap quicker.
That 'snappy' feel does NOT translate to more power, even if it feels so (why do you think Jared Graves runs the XTR Race (non-cam driven) levers to his Saint calipers?).
The new Guide brakes (Pharmaboy isn't far off, they must be selling well, CRC have upped their price by $30-$40 in the last month, RSCs still competitively priced against XTR - their competition) have a cam driving link on a 4 piston caliper, giving them a higher hydraulic ratio and quick, 'snappy' engagement.

The softness of your brake feel may be due to shitty/cheap hoses (not normally a problem unless you're using Elixers 1/3s or if you have organic pads they are more compressible than metallic pads.

Avids do not require more skill to bleed than Shimano, that is just plain wrong.
They use a vacuum bleed system, so ironically its actually easier to get all air out of the system than an equivalent gravity bleed on a Shimano system.
Anyone who says otherwise is lazy and doesn't want to spend 5 mins watching a youtube video.
Putting a bleed cup on a Shimano brake and burping out air bubbles is NOT a bleed.

 

[Shadow Puppet]

Putting a bleed cup on a Shimano brake and burping out air bubbles is NOT a bleed.

Yes it is. A brake bleed is when you bleed out air bubbles from a hydraulic system.

 

[moorey]

Yes it is. A brake bleed is when you bleed out air bubbles from a hydraulic system.

Unless bleeding avids, where the outcome is generally the addition of air...

 

[The Duckmeister]

I think I had a "Friday afternoon" set of Avids on a new bike at work once.... They forgot to put the stock air bubbles in....

 

[Nautonier]

The air bubbles are what give them the modulation.

 

[Jay Taylor]

It's the bubbles of nothing that make them really something...

 

[Mitch243]

Yes it is. A brake bleed is when you bleed out air bubbles from a hydraulic system.

You are brilliant. So not only does it not matter if there is air in your calipers (not a common occurrence, but an occurrence none the less) but you are never going to replace the shitty old fluid in your lines (I bet its blacker than skin cancer). Cool man, but there is a bleed port on the caliper of Shimano brakes for a reason.

I think I'm gonna continue to bleed mine regularly. Don't do yours. Thats fine.
I've seen seals blow. If it happens you'll probably crash, but hey, they're easy to 'bleed' right?

 

[Mitch243]

Unless bleeding avids, where the outcome is generally the addition of air...

How people manage to do this when its a vacuum bleed is a downright disbelief to me.
It's really not difficult.

 

[Shadow Puppet]

You are brilliant. So not only does it not matter if there is air in your calipers (not a common occurrence, but an occurrence none the less) but you are never going to replace the shitty old fluid in your lines (I bet its blacker than skin cancer). Cool man, but there is a bleed port on the caliper of Shimano brakes for a reason.

I think I'm gonna continue to bleed mine regularly. Don't do yours. Thats fine.
I've seen seals blow. If it happens you'll probably crash, but hey, they're easy to 'bleed' right?

Did I say to never change the fluid in your brakes? Nope.

Bleeding a brake is removing air from the system. That is all. Bleeding a brake does not refer to changing the fluid. Two different things.

I may be brilliant, but I think you might be a little special.... ;-)

 

[johnny]

You are brilliant. So not only does it not matter if there is air in your calipers (not a common occurrence, but an occurrence none the less) but you are never going to replace the shitty old fluid in your lines (I bet its blacker than skin cancer). Cool man, but there is a bleed port on the caliper of Shimano brakes for a reason.

I think I'm gonna continue to bleed mine regularly. Don't do yours. Thats fine.
I've seen seals blow. If it happens you'll probably crash, but hey, they're easy to 'bleed' right?

First off, I know dick all bout hydraulics and I've never bled a brake once.

With that in mind, I've got a set of Avid Juicy 5s on my XC/commuter bike that I've been riding for near 10 years now. The brakes were second hand when I bought them and they've never been re-bled since then. They still work perfectly.

 

[moorey]

I'm lucky to have ridden only a few sets of avids, but have bled a couple for mates. Do they still use the shitty screw in bleed port, where unlike shimano (for one), you can't close off the bleed nipple...but rather have to rush to replace bleed port screw after removing syringe? Please say no, it's been a couple of years since last doing one.

 

[Alo661]

Just bleed avids the gravity way, remove the plunger from the lever syringe. Don't like the vacuum idea, it works in theory but not in practice. Requires the clean rubber hose to be replaced regularly to get a solid seal to achieve the vacuum., otherwise you'll be pulling on the syringe and getting bubbles, but those bubbles are not necessarily coming out of the brake. Not to mention pressurizing the system means the when removing the syringe it'll either spit dot4 fluid out or suck air back in.

I'm lucky to have ridden only a few sets of avids, but have bled a couple for mates. Do they still use the shitty screw in bleed port, where unlike shimano (for one), you can't close off the bleed nipple...but rather have to rush to replace bleed port screw after removing syringe? Please say no, it's been a couple of years since last doing one.

Yes they still do, it's heaps of fun trying to find them on the workshop floor once someone has knocked it from the position you put it in. Using Torx heads means it's alot harder to strip them when compared to the Shimano bleed port screw.

Avid have been ruined by the Elixir series. Juicy's were great and the new Guides are on par with the power of current Shimano, just with more modulation. All they need is a rotor like the Ice-Tec, but I haven't tried the new centerline rotors yet, waiting for them to arrive.

 

[moorey]

Yeah, but with shimano, you don't remove bleed nipple, just loosen half a turn. Removing bleed screw is surely dumbest idea ever. Must have done 50+ bleeds for self and others in 15 years running shimano discs. Never stripped a bleed screw, and never botched a bleed. I'm not a smart man, but I knows what I likes.