kizza01
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...Or be shot dead for some poorly exectuted invasion on a country whos leader was the sought after target, not the thousands of civilians who have "martyd" themselves for the US invasion...? I mean i dunno? Care to enlighten me?
Iraq; Opponents to the war, correct again. Turkey will invade #222
- Thread starter johnny
- Start date
looks like they're going to fark it up again.
They're discussing sending more troops to stabilise te country, yet they're only thinking of another 30 000 troops?! Now I don't know of the restraints and manning concerns that they are facing, but that seems like less than half that I think they should be sending.
Skwiz, mabye you should pose your questions a little differently as that did sound like you were trying to imply something.
They're discussing sending more troops to stabilise te country, yet they're only thinking of another 30 000 troops?! Now I don't know of the restraints and manning concerns that they are facing, but that seems like less than half that I think they should be sending.
Skwiz, mabye you should pose your questions a little differently as that did sound like you were trying to imply something.
tassiehardtail
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even though i do not support the war your going out there to try to help which is more than what I am doing
good luck on your tour
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Humfreyoncrak
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I have never been in a war zone, and hope that I never will. Could you give us some insight on the situation from your own perspective? What it the general vibe amongst Australian troops on the ground. I understand if you don't feel you wan't to or cannot due to policy etc. It would be interesting to hear your perspective, as you have actually been there and seen firsthand what is happening. I have a close relative in the SASR and his experiences and perspective of the covert/overt operations in Afghanistan were quite remarkable and insightful.
Oddjob
Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Are you serving with one of the RARs or the SASR? Regardless you're a braver man than me and full credit to you for serving your country. As with all the troops, I hope you have a good tour and come home safely. Good luck and I reckon your experiences would make a good meet the Farkers write up when you get back.
Anyone who goes to Iraq should read this:
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/92933
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/92933
Oddjob
Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Tell me your joking.
ExTrEmE FrEeRiDe
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i reckon the best thing america could have done is stay out of iraq
yeah it had a fcuk of dictator but at least it was kept in some sort of order and he kept the waring parties in check but now america has gone there and given them democracy
which is probley the worst thing they could do for an arab country who have to main parties (Shiite-Sunn) that have been at war with each other for centuries and will continue to fight for centuries more regardless of whos ruling them or how.
yeah it had a fcuk of dictator but at least it was kept in some sort of order and he kept the waring parties in check but now america has gone there and given them democracy
which is probley the worst thing they could do for an arab country who have to main parties (Shiite-Sunn) that have been at war with each other for centuries and will continue to fight for centuries more regardless of whos ruling them or how.
Take it how you want to, but there is a fine line between being brave and being stupid.
Have you seen any interviews with US soldiers in Iraq?
There's also a fine line between genius and insanity, so I'm sure you will tell me when I step over the line
Oddjob
Merry fucking Xmas to you assholes
Could someone send me a head shaking emoticon?Take it how you want to, but there is a fine line between being brave and being stupid.
Have you seen any interviews with US soldiers in Iraq?
There's also a fine line between genius and insanity, so I'm sure you will tell me when I step over the line
I dont accept the 'you cannot criticise the troops' political correctness nonsense.
Sure, most of the blame lies with the leaders for poor planning (not to mention the lies and deception spun regarding the reasons for war), but I ask again, have you seen interviews with US troops?
Brave, stupid .... call it what you want, but it is plainly obvious that its not only the terrorists that excel at brainwashing.
I am not against the troops and appreciate the job they do, and am also aware that brainwashing is a necessary technique if you want to create killing machines.
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demo man
Used to be cool.
haha, I like this lopes guy!
Mate, you really shouldn't put too much shit on troops. even if you think they're dumb and simple-minded (and in some cases you wouldn't be alone with that opinion) it's stupid in itself to call ALL troops that. Besides, if they are all too stupid to realise what they're doing then we should feel sorry for them more than attack them. I feel sorry for anyone anywhere near this war - it sucks, in everyway, for everyone involved. I doubt anyone is enjoying it (I bloody hope not!).
I haven't read the whole thread so some of this may not be totally correct in the context, but whatever.
I personally don't think that being able to kill lots of people with a poweful army is something to be proud of - I would like to think that this isn't going to be THE most important thing in the future. However, being able to save people from bad shit, in any manner, is something to be proud of.
I think that while we can say we saved them from Sadam, we didn't really help them much. Civil war sucks too, maybe more.
To the troops individually - Obviously I hope you all end up fine. I strognly disslike our leadership though, and as Johnny has proven very well, it's a messy situation that really should not have aroze.
It's a dirty job, the government tells us it needs doing and I sure as hell don't want to do it. In my book you've (soldiers/infantry etc.) got the worst job in the world. I guess that can be counted as taking one for the team.
Skwiz - You said you did support it - do you still? Obviously we cannot back out now, we need to somehow try and fix this shit up, but given a second chance would you support going into Iraq in the first place?
Mate, you really shouldn't put too much shit on troops. even if you think they're dumb and simple-minded (and in some cases you wouldn't be alone with that opinion) it's stupid in itself to call ALL troops that. Besides, if they are all too stupid to realise what they're doing then we should feel sorry for them more than attack them. I feel sorry for anyone anywhere near this war - it sucks, in everyway, for everyone involved. I doubt anyone is enjoying it (I bloody hope not!).
I haven't read the whole thread so some of this may not be totally correct in the context, but whatever.
I personally don't think that being able to kill lots of people with a poweful army is something to be proud of - I would like to think that this isn't going to be THE most important thing in the future. However, being able to save people from bad shit, in any manner, is something to be proud of.
I think that while we can say we saved them from Sadam, we didn't really help them much. Civil war sucks too, maybe more.
To the troops individually - Obviously I hope you all end up fine. I strognly disslike our leadership though, and as Johnny has proven very well, it's a messy situation that really should not have aroze.
It's a dirty job, the government tells us it needs doing and I sure as hell don't want to do it. In my book you've (soldiers/infantry etc.) got the worst job in the world. I guess that can be counted as taking one for the team.
Skwiz - You said you did support it - do you still? Obviously we cannot back out now, we need to somehow try and fix this shit up, but given a second chance would you support going into Iraq in the first place?
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I definately haven't been brainwashed. Guys generally don't join the army unless they are prepared to get send O/S, to any country, anytime, for any reason.
I'm actually getting sent O/S early next year and i'd like to think that the majority of the public actually supports the troops on the ground, even if they don't agree with the war.
-Sean
demo man - I did not say all troops were stupid - I just thought it would be appropriate for anyone going Iraq to consider why they are going, hence my link to the 'brave or stupid' question.
Dhfactory - Good luck in your o/s posting.
Your comment about the 'general public supporting the troops even if they dont agree with the war' is something that the politicians like to say, and raises lots of conflicting questions.
I prefer to re-state it as: Even though I don't support the war, I hope all our troops return safely.
As for what to do now that the mess has been created, it looks like the 'send more troops' theory is gaining traction.
I think the Democrats will have to be very careful or they will end up taking the blame for the mess (neo-cons/Republicans appear to be laying a trap, and if the Democrats make the wrong move, the neo-cons will be off the hook).
I don't think anything can be resolved until there is a change of government in USA and I would prefer if the Democrats just let the Republicans run the war (but perhaps put them under more scrutiny through investigations etc)
That way if the Democrats can win in 2008, they can extricate the US without loss of face, blame the old Bush regime, and offer to work with what's left of the players in the region.
They could simply say to the Iraqi's you put in place a national reconciliation government and then offer to help by providing appropriate support.
Let the iraqi's truly run the show - something the Bush admin has not been able to do because they were too intricately involved.
It would also help if there were changes in government in Britain & Australia, so it would truly be a clean slate.
I'm still upset that the whole can of worms has been opened, and it seems Howard is putting on more pressure on by saying the USA cannot be seen to take a loss.
Dhfactory - Good luck in your o/s posting.
Your comment about the 'general public supporting the troops even if they dont agree with the war' is something that the politicians like to say, and raises lots of conflicting questions.
I prefer to re-state it as: Even though I don't support the war, I hope all our troops return safely.
As for what to do now that the mess has been created, it looks like the 'send more troops' theory is gaining traction.
I think the Democrats will have to be very careful or they will end up taking the blame for the mess (neo-cons/Republicans appear to be laying a trap, and if the Democrats make the wrong move, the neo-cons will be off the hook).
I don't think anything can be resolved until there is a change of government in USA and I would prefer if the Democrats just let the Republicans run the war (but perhaps put them under more scrutiny through investigations etc)
That way if the Democrats can win in 2008, they can extricate the US without loss of face, blame the old Bush regime, and offer to work with what's left of the players in the region.
They could simply say to the Iraqi's you put in place a national reconciliation government and then offer to help by providing appropriate support.
Let the iraqi's truly run the show - something the Bush admin has not been able to do because they were too intricately involved.
It would also help if there were changes in government in Britain & Australia, so it would truly be a clean slate.
I'm still upset that the whole can of worms has been opened, and it seems Howard is putting on more pressure on by saying the USA cannot be seen to take a loss.
Humfreyoncrak
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A tad off topic but I watched 'Soundtrack to War' last month.
A couple of insightful remarks and anecdotes from some troops. Some segments need no verbal communication, the troops demenour (SP) says it all.
The comedy element is provided in the segments concerning the christian troops.
http://www.soundtracktowar.com.au/soundtrack.htm
A couple of insightful remarks and anecdotes from some troops. Some segments need no verbal communication, the troops demenour (SP) says it all.
The comedy element is provided in the segments concerning the christian troops.
http://www.soundtracktowar.com.au/soundtrack.htm
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skwiz05
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Yes I did support it from way back in the first instance when we ousted them from Kuwait...For the many people who have served up that way, the invasion of IRAQ was a continuation (or finishing off of a job started but not finished). Should have been done back then I say.
To pull out in one big withdrawal now would be carnage. Its now making the best of a bad situation.
There are of course those people in IRAQ you speak to that are for it (most of the ordinary people) and there are those with a seemingly dark motive to have the US pull out.
The media only really seems to report on the latter aspect most of the time.
I cant deny its one hell of a political bunfight, but looking at what troops do on the ground day to day, peacekeeping, lending assistance to rebuilding programs and the security for those people etc, the overall effort and idea is one that the majority welcome.
The alternative could have be much worse for many ordinary citizens of IRAQ if nothing was done. Those against it bitch about the few thousand dead troops, but forget about how the old regime killed thousands more, and the raping and torture of women and children, and the lack of any basic human rights.
I suppose its hard to appreciate it all without seeing it. Those people dont take their freedom for granted as we do here.
We would all laugh at a drunk teen in a car doing burnouts, thinking he's just having fun, but when that kid runs down your wife, brother or loved one, only then you might get close to how most of these people feel about having lost friends and family to the torture and sensless killing of the old regime. this week its an uncle, then in two weeks your sister disappears then your mother....etc...And it was many more than the few thousand reported deaths we now hear about.
Its all a big political balancing act.........but, the overall gist of it is that we are there now, and we are there to HELP.
Cant do better than that can we?
Wasn't possible back then though.
Agree 100%
That's a big call IMO
1. How do you know how many were dying before? Were do you get these figures from? How do you know how many are dying now? Where do you get those figures from? It seems you have access to information that nobody else in the world has. There are no hard numbers as to how many civillians are dying each day right now, it's only clear that it's in the hundereds each day. All these stories of people shredding machines, wharehouses of bodies etc., were all unsubstantiated when the west took control of the country. I think, as any text book case for war will have it, the enemy was pretty strongly demonised. Of course Saddam was farked up and really made a mess of the country and its people, but to catagoricaly state that there were more dying then than there is now is quite a leap if you ask me because the figures are put at anywhere between 35-900 000.....that's quite a spread to be able to draw hard conclusions from!
Yes, we are there now and IMO the only fix it we have now is to send HEAPS more troops to smother the country. It's the only realistic way out. But, I disagree completely that we are there to help. We were there originally for Weapons of Mass Destruction, that is undeniable. Only when none turned up did the whole liberation cause Come to the forefront of policy speeches and rationales. If anyone still believes that this is some kind of humanutarian mission of altruistic good will, they are completely lost. This was a stratgic move, nothing more.....I think I've posted enough evidence to show that at least.
Whilst I know that it's (hopefully) not a valid comparison, let's also remember that Saddam doesn't hold a monopoly on rape, torture and murder:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6198947.stm
http://www.wvec.com/news/military/stories/wvec_military_120106_torture_book.4326420c.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380.html
demo man
Used to be cool.
I don't support those soldiers... ^^
yes or no answer, would you support the same war from the start, again - knowing that what is happening now would happen?
and a new one: do you feel stupid for supporting it in the first place?
I'll skip the claims and total lack of evidence in your post, Johnny did that for me...
yes or no answer, would you support the same war from the start, again - knowing that what is happening now would happen?
and a new one: do you feel stupid for supporting it in the first place?
skwiz05
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Maybe if one was think of things this way, to understand my perspective a little clearer......
It was the US that invaded, not Australia. We were there from near the beginning , in specific roles aimed at support, (slightly differing from the hunt and kill modus in Afganistan).
We have followed the role/lead of the US troops mainly, and commit our troops to the more positive roles of support (inc military) such as security of people, rebuilding etc as we do now.
I would not support the invasion again, done the same way, but continue to support the current occupancy for all the good it is doing. (While acknowleding that its not the perfect answer)
True, Saddam's wasnt the only regime that kills and tortures, but, we invaded IRAQ, not some other poor 3rd world African country that rapes and torture happen in also (apparently the UN has a handle on most African peacekeeping), so speaking to many ordinary IRAQ citizens and listening to them first hand gives me the info on rapes/tortures and murders. This info is free to the world media also.
Typical example -well known- the mass gassing of a particular town.
And yes, i do generalise a bit (based on my own knowledge of the affair) but cant give specifics on such an open forum. Sorry for that, but its still a good discussion non the less.
And i dont feel stupid for supporting it in the first place...that started for me when we ousted them from Kuwait.
It was the US that invaded, not Australia. We were there from near the beginning , in specific roles aimed at support, (slightly differing from the hunt and kill modus in Afganistan).
We have followed the role/lead of the US troops mainly, and commit our troops to the more positive roles of support (inc military) such as security of people, rebuilding etc as we do now.
I would not support the invasion again, done the same way, but continue to support the current occupancy for all the good it is doing. (While acknowleding that its not the perfect answer)
True, Saddam's wasnt the only regime that kills and tortures, but, we invaded IRAQ, not some other poor 3rd world African country that rapes and torture happen in also (apparently the UN has a handle on most African peacekeeping), so speaking to many ordinary IRAQ citizens and listening to them first hand gives me the info on rapes/tortures and murders. This info is free to the world media also.
Typical example -well known- the mass gassing of a particular town.
And yes, i do generalise a bit (based on my own knowledge of the affair) but cant give specifics on such an open forum. Sorry for that, but its still a good discussion non the less.
And i dont feel stupid for supporting it in the first place...that started for me when we ousted them from Kuwait.