Jongewaard wins Aus XC champs despite protest - what happened?

scblack

Leucocholic
Why do they put up with him? Anyone grabs me in a race to pull me back would get a surprise backfist to the face.
Same from me.

I saw a triathlon earlier in the year where a bloke was finishing in the winning place. He was swanning about taking it all in. The second place guy was charging up behind him. When the first place guy realised how close he was, he stepped in front of him and held the second place guy back. Try that with me and he could expect to be thrown out of my way, with force.
 

Ackland

chats d'élevage
Ahhhh everyone loves a good keyboard crucifixion...

You don't know what led up to this final corner between the two, nor after...
You have no idea what was going on physically or mentally with either rider...

Don't pretend you've never done anything silly when the red mist descends.

I think they're both in the wrong and should have copped a 30 second penalty minimum relegating them to 2nd and 3rd.
 

pharmaboy

Eats Squid
Ahhhh everyone loves a good keyboard crucifixion...

You don't know what led up to this final corner between the two, nor after...
You have no idea what was going on physically or mentally with either rider...

Don't pretend you've never done anything silly when the red mist descends.

I think they're both in the wrong and should have copped a 30 second penalty minimum relegating them to 2nd and 3rd.
jongewaard has form - it's merely confirmation of his behaviour and not aberrant
 

Dozer

Heavy machinery.
Staff member
Ahhhh everyone loves a good keyboard crucifixion...

You don't know what led up to this final corner between the two, nor after...
You have no idea what was going on physically or mentally with either rider...

Don't pretend you've never done anything silly when the red mist descends.

I think they're both in the wrong and should have copped a 30 second penalty minimum relegating them to 2nd and 3rd.
"yeah, ol' Chris is alright! He has changed his tone since he got out of prison for getting drunk, jumping in a car and running over a mate of his".....................said no one with half a brain ever. He's a fuckwit, he doesn't deserve to be getting any cred for anything other than being a contender for Australia's biggest fuckwit.
 

scblack

Leucocholic
"yeah, ol' Chris is alright! He has changed his tone since he got out of prison for getting drunk, jumping in a car and running over a mate of his".....................said no one with half a brain ever. He's a fuckwit, he doesn't deserve to be getting any cred for anything other than being a contender for Australia's biggest fuckwit.
And seconded! Well said.
 

redbruce

Eats Squid
I think they're both in the wrong and should have copped a 30 second penalty minimum relegating them to 2nd and 3rd.
Explain?

Looks (from John U link) to me like like CJ tried to claim the corner even though he had no lead, PVDP held his position and ended up braking late and running wide (could CJ have made the corner at that speed with giving way to someone on the inside line until apex anyway?), pushing CJ wide and into the barrier. Some argy barge and PVDP goes to ride off, CJ grabs the back wheel.

Looks like a racing incident up until CJ grabs PVDP back wheel. A heat of the moment error of judgement for both, until the wheel grab. Irrespective of anything else, unprofessional, unsportsman like and in my view, inexcusable from CJ.

In any case, why do we (some) continually justify patently poor behaviour with "when the red mist descends"?

At best a poor justification for any decent persons actions, let alone elite athletes. This is the example you want your kids to follow, truly?
 
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The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
My largely similar to redbruce's view: to me it looks like vdP hung out a little wide to stay on the firmer dirt , which CJ didn't read & they tangled. vdP's "get off me, ya maggot" push may have been a little forceful, but he was far closer to regaining composure & going again than CJ, who was still slithering about in the mud. The wheelgrab was unnecessary fuckwittery from a Class A Fuckwit who had already lost the race through clumsiness.
 

link1896

Mr Greenfield
Can someone please explain how a four year old thread comes back to life like this? Did the accused commit a recent offence?
 

smoothwakey

Likes Bikes
If you put the off track antics aside, I think Jongewaard is the Australian mtb version of Mike Alessi (or maybe the alessi family). People give them the benefit of doubt initially but then after basically a decade of unsportsman like conduct every body eventually notices the common denominator.
 

Ackland

chats d'élevage
Explain?

Looks (from John U link) to me like like CJ tried to claim the corner even though he had no lead, PVDP held his position and ended up braking late and running wide (could CJ have made the corner at that speed with giving way to someone on the inside line until apex anyway?), pushing CJ wide and into the barrier. Some argy barge and PVDP goes to ride off, CJ grabs the back wheel.

Looks like a racing incident up until CJ grabs PVDP back wheel. A heat of the moment error of judgement for both, until the wheel grab. Irrespective of anything else, unprofessional, unsportsman like and in my view, inexcusable from CJ.

In any case, why do we (some) continually justify patently poor behaviour with "when the red mist descends"?

At best a poor justification for any decent persons actions, let alone elite athletes. This is the example you want your kids to follow, truly?
My thoughts from the two angles and the fact that by UCI rules for CX course widths and being a national champs with commisaires.
They both acted in the wrong.
VDP could have made that corner without pushing CJ into the bunting. He CHOSE to push him wide (fair racing) but shoving (both ways) ensued.
CJ was actually moving off again first but went down with a shove from VDP, at which point he reacted very poorly by grabbing the wheel in frustration.
Penalty to both.

I'm not justifying their behavior by saying that the red mist would have been heavy but you can't deny it's a big factor with the green and gold stripes on the line and the frustration of seeing it slip away.
 

RichJS

Likes Dirt
CJ was actually moving off again first
If you're suggesting CJ is getting ahead of PVDP: Watch Groovy Beige's video and look real close at CJ's left arm - after he touches the ground with it, he (IMO) deliberately leans his forearm across PVDP's bars to hold him back, instead of reaching straight for his left brake with his hand. The only thing obstructing PVDP is CJ's dirty left forearm.

In anon4664's vid it looks like CJ gets a big push in the back, but again - watch GB's vid: It looks to me like PVDP is - at least at first - just trying to push CJ's forearm off his bars.

You could argue that to be truly sporting, PDVP shouldn't have even taken his hand of the bars to touch CJ's. I think everyone got the outcome they deserved.
 

Ackland

chats d'élevage
Oh well... it is what it is...

This is my favourite version so far...

Could probably only be bested by a Monty Python's Flying circus edit, complete with foot..... anyone... anyone....

[video=youtube;JEnCB_rVOcw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEnCB_rVOcw&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 

akashra

Eats Squid
My thoughts from the two angles and the fact that by UCI rules for CX course widths and being a national champs with commisaires.
I want you to think about this statement for a moment, because you're not the first person to jump on an internet forum and criticize us over the width of the CX nationals course, pointing out that it needs to be at least 3m right throughout.

First, if you were actually at Essendon Fields you'd know how problematic this would be. But think about for a moment what would happen if we, as commissaires, turned up to a venue run by a promoter, they've laid out a course, despite the fact that we were given course maps of how it was going to be a month or so earlier - and you say to them "no, you have to change all this. Your whole course, it doesn't meet the rules. The race will not be run like this."

And in many cases there there's no way you're going to get a full 3m width for certain sections. This part of the course was actually fine - but there were other sections, particularly on the hilly side of the course, if you ran it 3m wide not only would it not matter, because only one line is going to form anyway, but the far side of that 3m is going to be 50-80cm lower than the high side because of the way it runs across the hill.

It's a silly thing to suggest. While the rulebook is there for certain things, coming in as a commissaire and making demands for the course to be fixed in ways like that is not only not going to happen, but it doesn't help in trying to make the teams under the Event Director, Technical Delegate and Chief Commissaire any easier.

Add to this these particular organizers - hell, when I (as a commissaire at the event) suggested - not instructed, but suggested to one of their guys while he was putting bunting out at the round they had earlier in the year - so that we wouldn't have to adjust it later - ie, make it easy now in case it becomes a problem - that he run the bunting at about 1-1.5ft high rather than the shoulder height or so he was putting it up - so it doesn't get caught in the wind as much and so it doesn't get caught on riders handlebars when they run wide, the event manager came over and absolutely blasted me, another commissaire, and the chief commissaire in a way I've never had occur at an event ever! Some event organizers are easier than others to get along with, and some, even though they've only been running CX events for 12 months, think they can't learn from others who may, or may not, have been doing it for, well... a tad longer than 12 months :)

Basically, pick your battles. "The course is only 2.88m wide, you need to go re-drill all those holes and find another 1.2m width in this section of course" is not one of them.
 

Ackland

chats d'élevage
What? I wasn't criticising..
I was assuming the course was up to spec or thereabouts.
I'm still of the opinion (knowing vdp is a gun bike handler) that he deliberately pushed Chris wide which is fair racing.
 

akashra

Eats Squid
Watch it in slow-mo, frame by frame. YouTube allows you to watch it at 0.25x speed too - highly recommended. Admittedly I have the benefit of having the raw footage (ie, doesn't have the compression artefacts YouTube does, at full 1080p), but you can pretty clearly see that CJs arm is on the inside of Pauls hand/right hood the whole way through the corner. Massively impressive is that Pauls hands don't come off the bars even until after CJ is on the ground.

I'm not going to go in to what was said by either rider during our interviews and investigations, but you have he footage above to look at the incident it in detail. But let's not chuck more people on the "I'm a commissaire and if it was me..." bandwagon. I've already had to tell a number of commissaires "yes, and as a commissaire you should know better than to on a public forum criticize on a public forum - at an event which you were not appointed - the decisions made of people you're probably going to have to work with/under one day".
 

Dozer

Heavy machinery.
Staff member
Watch it in slow-mo, frame by frame. YouTube allows you to watch it at 0.25x speed too - highly recommended. Admittedly I have the benefit of having the raw footage (ie, doesn't have the compression artefacts YouTube does, at full 1080p), but you can pretty clearly see that CJs arm is on the inside of Pauls hand/right hood the whole way through the corner. Massively impressive is that Pauls hands don't come off the bars even until after CJ is on the ground.

I'm not going to go in to what was said by either rider during our interviews and investigations, but you have he footage above to look at the incident it in detail. But let's not chuck more people on the "I'm a commissaire and if it was me..." bandwagon. I've already had to tell a number of commissaires "yes, and as a commissaire you should know better than to on a public forum criticize on a public forum - at an event which you were not appointed - the decisions made of people you're probably going to have to work with/under one day".
I'm a commissaire and find it a useless role usually filled by people without a spine who do it only out of necessity or because they feel empowered. In saying that, how the fuck is it possible that not one official at that race who had access to the footage and would have reviewed it did not disqualify the twat for continually dicking other riders around? He can't beat them on skill or merit so he plays a cheat and takes them down. I'd be stoked to see this guy disqualified from future events.
The officials need to be accountable at any level in any sport. That's the point of being an official. The precedent has been set and from the outside looking in, the officials are basically saying it's okay to do that sort of stuff to get a result.

Ban the jerk, kick him out of competition.
 
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