Lower back pain - Body Posture

[specialized1#]

It's awesome mate that ye old man is with his son all the way, but I have to pose the question, what do you think O'l man.... Ruggers or MTB?

Now we're talkin' !

How can a 47 year old rugby tragic that has a discovered a passion for mtb through his 4 kids begin to answer that ???

The short answer is BOTH !!

I beleive that Rugby (very different to the other codes, no matter how similar they may seem) can teach a young bloke some valuable life lessons. I think that was why the game was invented. Please forgive me if I seem a bit over-the-top with this, but: Rugby demands team play, courtesy, respect and courage. There is a field position for every size and body shape. Winning (or losing) a tight one with 14 of your mates amplifies the emotion that a solo sport can never match. Mateship. And most importantly in a world where political correctness dominates, where any physical expression of emotion can be frowned upon (and really, how else do boys communicate), a world where success is often disparaged....For eighty minutes each week, these kids can be king of their patch, belt the crap out of each other within a loosley constructed set of rules (and learn to control their anger along the way - a skill that is clearly lacking so often) and generally express themselves in a manner that nature intended. They can do this with the all important approval of the older generation. It is a rite of passage - one of many to be found. And helps those turbulent adolescent emotions to settle a bit, as they have an outlet.

Thats my abbreviated version

Its the MTB that has landed us in hospital a couple of times.

MTB (race or just out there) teaches mongrel. And if you haven't got mongrel by yourself, you won't have it for your team. Here the def'n of 'team' can be anything - mates - family - footy - whatever. MTB teaches you to stick at it, to attack the mountain, get to the top and enjoy the fun that it brings. Self reliance, independance - a tyre change in the back blocks, by yourself - a big thing for my 11yr old, but he's done it. MTB teaches decision, choice and consequence. One of the boys came home pumped - "Dad, I did that big jump" "When you do it, you have to just...do it ! I wasn't thinking of anything else" Thats called focus and if you it can be done on a bike, it can be done in an exam.

Adolescents are risk takers - what better place to learn risk than on a downhill track.

MTB is something all of us can do and the kids love nothing better than hitting out with me on the trails. Finally, after we were assisted with a flat by a passing rider, one of the kids observes "everyone we meet when we're riding is really nice". That's hard to top

With regard to injuries, beyond the two hospital visits. We have experienced 3 broken ribs. 1. 11yr old missing the lander on a tabletop. 2. Me going over the bars 3. Me getting taken out by a 12yr old rugby player in training - i'm often the tackle bag

phew ! that was a bit long.

ps - bike parts = academic incentive

 

[PepsiMax]

to the OP im a qualified remedial massage therapist & what Im hearing just lower back pain, it could be caused by a few things, such as tight hamstrings, an incorrect firing pattern of the LB, HS & Glute, his rectus abdominis (6pack) could be too strong compared to his deeper adominal muscles (lowerback) or he could have extremely tight lats as they attach down onto the lower portion of the back, he could have active trigger points within his glutes & erector spinae or other muscle groups.

The lower back problem your son is experiencing is a great opportunity to get him a remedial massage, yeah you could go to a physio but a physio just looks at you goes 'hmm hmm, oh heres some exercises do these and you should be right, thats 85 bucks thanks" the onus is really on your son to take on the treatment for his back but seeing that he is 13, i dont think he will really care about doing them much, while a remedial massage therapist will over say 2-3 weeks will be able to do basically the same thing as a physio but with more benefit to the muscular condition/health of your sons lower back/total body, as usually there is an underlying cause for the problem which could stem from an old knee injury etc

now if you book a massage therapist it has to be a remedial massage therapist not a relaxation massage & not a chinese/thai massage place which you see in like westfields, especially the last ones as they are usually not qualified & they are usually painful, jerky, rushed treatments. So only Remedial massage! ask for his/her experience as a massage therapist & if your not comfortable leaving your son alone for an hr with someone massaging him you could always ask to be present in the room & just watch & learn as you could maybe do some of the basic movements to your son if his back flares up or your wife when shes stressed (she will be surprised by this kind gesture). Most massage therapists wouldnt have a problem with you being in the room just be honest with them & say you would like to know what its about etc, usually the first massage will be shorter than an hr due to the interview/testing of your son to help determine the appropriate action to be taken & to also help identify underlying causes.


If you can get your son to narrow down the exact area of pain I could help tell you what could be causing the problem?

 

[Optimus]

Have to say it is great to see the feedback coming through and I hope that a solution can be found before too long.

Everything said thus far in relation to flexibility, core strength and bike fit are correct but as a personal trainer and triathlon/cycling/mtb coach (including a high school mountain bike team), there are two other aspects that should also be considered.

1. Is he cranking the pedals too hard? The solution could be as simple as increasing his cadence (pedal strokes per minute), particularly up any short & punchy incline. Awaba is a track that doesn't give much respite in terms of coasting, especially when racing. I've found, that linked with what has been said in terms of firing the incorrect muscles or over compensation by smaller muscle groups, many people use their lower back to generate power. You can still get your HR through the roof and hold max speed by riding with a higher cadence, it's just training yourself to do so and keeping flow out on the course.

2. Muscle imbalences. This has been briefly been touched on already, but I want to be a little more specific. Go into a high school gym and more than 90% of the guys will have one thigh bigger than the other. While being a front rower means not a lot of kicking is done, should he be a prop that spends more time on one side of the scrum, he could then be pushing more from one side of his body. This is going to create that imbalance which doesn't go down so well when doing a sport such as cycling which is anatomically balanced... A good bike fitter or physio would identify this during an assessment, but a simple test is to have him do something single legged such as a squat.

Lastly there is a reason why your regular gym has age restrictions (normally 16 years) as with the growing body, doing anything more than bodyweight exercises is not advisable. Therefore if you want to start strengthening in any way, forget about getting a gym membership and use his own body to train. Should this become too easy begin to reduce stability (such as doing single legged or using a BOSU) and you can then progress to using something like a TRX. By the time he's mastered all this he should be at the age where he can begin lifting weights.

My 2c. Cheers,
Chris

 

[Sketchl]

A Few Good Links!

A couple of links for lower back pain and better riding position!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Si2jFQv-hc&feature=player_embedded

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/199933/

 

[specialized1#]

I've done that fit calculator thing on-line from "Competetive Cyclist" - see earlier message in thread - and found that all the dimensions are really close but for the seat to stem measurement which is about 30mm too long.

Step 1. will now be to move the seat closer to the stem and see what that does after a good blat through Glenrock

What are the thoughts, if any on seat angle ? parallel to the ground or ?

 

[my02]

My son rode again at the RTE Awaba event, and again was hampered by back pain. Where do I start with trying to address this ? For background info, he is 13, and has shot up over the last 18 months. He is large framed, fit, muscular and plays a helluva game in the front row for the local rugby team - although the brain is not yet fully wired to the limbs

I'd really like to sort this prior to Dargle.

I've identified three main areas to address being; 1. body posture/frame size/ seat etc. 2. Conditioning i.e. just keep riding till you can hack it. 3. Strength and flexibility. But I think if the posture is wrong, no amount of strength/conditioning work would be beneficial. What else ? How to start ?

Discuss ?

How tall is he? Roughly how much has he shot up in the last 18 months?

Per the mention of BikeJames, I found this article / video to be interesting.

http://www.bikejames.com/technical-skills-training/body-position-clinic-from-pinkbike/

I have recently realised that my low back posture fatigues quite quickly leading to a rounded low back. Combine that with VERY strong legs (think 2000+w sprint burst output) and there ends up being a lot of pressure going through the lumbar spine when its not correctly extended. For a 3 hour ride, that leads to a fair bit of stiffness.

For those who are gym goers, I've also found this article:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/rdl-vs-sldl.html

Bad habits on the bike have caused a change in how I feel my hips moving. The RDL used to be a favourite exercise and one where i could handle a lot of weight. The above article made me realise that having had a break from the RDL for a few years, coming back into it my technique was rubbish and leading to further problems (caused by the bike). Turns out that low back strength (as in raw strength) is a lot less important than low back strength endurance. This is far more applicable to us MTBers.

Now that I've made postural changes, corrected movement patterns AND worked on my low back endurance (which was staggeringly bad for a bloke that looks big and strong), my LBP is almost gone.

Hope this helps.

 

[pinkbike]

I've done that fit calculator thing on-line from "Competetive Cyclist" - see earlier message in thread - and found that all the dimensions are really close but for the seat to stem measurement which is about 30mm too long.

Step 1. will now be to move the seat closer to the stem and see what that does after a good blat through Glenrock

What are the thoughts, if any on seat angle ? parallel to the ground or ?

Careful moving the seat foreward to change the effective top tube length and this will alter the relationship of saddle to bottom bracket - ie. the pedaling position which will recruit muscles differently and may cause more issues than it solves. A shorter stem is probably a better way of altering the effective top tube.

If you do move the seat then move only is small increments and a 30mm change in seat position is pretty drastic!

p.s we may have some shorter stems in the garage and I think we're just down the road from you, PM his current stem length and I'll see what we've got if you want?

 

[specialized1#]

Will do !

Thanks

 

[driftking]

For those who are gym goers, I've also found this article:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/rdl-vs-sldl.html

Good link here. I recently just started to incorporate deadlifts into my routine. My biggest concern with starting was lower back issues. I did not even consider SLDL as a exercise and after reading that article I dont think it will ever find its way into my routine. I dont think the back position of the SLDL can be healthy for the lower back.
Im a newbie to deadlifting so I could be wrong but it seems that the RDL and the standard(not sure what its called) is the most ideal exercise in terms of technique and posture. For now im sticking with the standard deadlift and down the track might consider the RDL to target my Hamstrings and Glutes. I am unsure about the standard deadlift as it places more stress on the lower back than the RDL but my back needs strengthening anyway which as far as I know the deadlift does do.

Of course both need to to be correctly otherwse you will end up with issues eitherway.

 

[specialized1#]

Thank You to all for all the input !

I have got a lot to go on now and need to read, watch, learn and follow up on a few local contacts.

The solution will lie in a bit of muscle treatment/bone type stuff as well as fiddling around with the bike set up.

On top of that, by the time I sort something he will have grown again !

Anyhow, thank you all for your comments. I'll follow up maybe in a month or so if there is a definitive outcome.

Cheers

 

[morgy]

well i have lower back pain, got really bad saw physio and it was my core that was out of whack, so do a shit load of core work to build up those muscles and core to make them stronger again

 

[maxwolfie]

well i have lower back pain, got really bad saw physio and it was my core that was out of whack, so do a shit load of core work to build up those muscles and core to make them stronger again

What he said ^

 

[Bermshot]

I think I have a miasm now! Thanks!

 

[Steve-0]

I had back pain when I was 13, pretty much all the way upto 17 or so. Bike setup is crucial but it's hard when he's still growing. Each month/year and all the measurements will be useless..

The answer is definitely core strength!! You have to get those abs working to support the back. Stretch properly before and after a ride too... Results won't be immediate but it will slowly get better until he's forgotten all about it. It's very beneficial to rugby I would imagine so I don't think he'd hesitate to much.

(Advice from U11-U19 Hardtail XC rider)

 

[specialized1#]

Where should the knee be, relative to the pedal ? Immediately above ? behind ? in front ?

 

[offthepace]

Steve Hoggs blog is well worth a read (and follow) regarding bike position. I've been fitted a couple of times based on the kops method and for me it just does not work. Far to much weight on my hands and wrists, some back issues, and power is just not there. Even after giving it a good few weeks of getting used to it. Its a style of fitting that is well worth a read and consideration.

 

[redbruce]

Steve Hoggs blog is well worth a read (and follow) regarding bike position. I've been fitted a couple of times based on the kops method and for me it just does not work. Far to much weight on my hands and wrists, some back issues, and power is just not there. Even after giving it a good few weeks of getting used to it. Its a style of fitting that is well worth a read and consideration.

Agreed. Also need to look at cleat position. Hoggs site is worth a comprehensive read. Main message is everything is connected and bike fit requires a holistic approach (and understanding).

Interesting thread. While there is no doubt core strength is important in all cycling codes it is not the only cause or solution to many cycling ailments. When my son was active and competitive in BMX racing (State and nationally ranked at the time), if he experienced physiological issues it was off to the sports physio. I have a keen interest in and layman knowledge of the area however I'm not an expert and he was only 13 so I didnt take any risks on my opinion or that of (no disrespect to qualified respondents intended ) forums.

 

[go to bed jessica]

Just to echo the majority or reponses, make an apointment to see a sports physio ASAP. The lower back is a very complex area, often any small issue will show itself elsewhere and make it very hard to self dignose what is really going on. I was dignosed with several lower back issues at 16 almost by accident but knowing of those issues later in life when I started to take XC riding more seriously made managing them much easier.

If your son has any sort of underlying issue it's beter to find out now, than any frame sizing or bike fits you do can take any issues into account. I owe my Physio a hell of a lot, without their help I would simply not been able to ride at any sort of intensity. In my mind they are worth their weight in gold.

 

[specialized1#]

Update: Some tinkering with seat height and fore/aft adjustment seemed to improve the situation. This was trialled by a fortuitous pupil-free-day whereupon the lads took themselves off for a 30k+ ride in Glenrock. It was spread over four hours, so probably wasn't too demanding. The next step will be a stem - same 70mm length - with a little angle (up) in it.

We have been to a sports physio and will be continuing with that for a number of reasons. The whole issue was trumped by a rugby incident which has his shoulder out of whack (frustratingly). First time in 80 odd games that he has been sidelined by an injury incurred on the field :mmph: .

Which also means we won't be at Dargle. Which leaves only 4 footy games and a soccer match for me

 

[specialized1#]

Thank God all winter sports are done and dusted !! Three finals appearances, one grand final - a shoulder that took a loooong time to repair and is still wobbly. Finally ! back to the bikes :02.47-tranquillity: