Machinery used for Trail Construction ?

[Trevor_S]

and other trail missives...

There seems to be little if no talk about machinery used in trail construction here. I visit the MTBR forums regularly and there seems to always be threads about using various bits of machinery to build track.

I know we have no IMBA equivalent in Aus concentrating on track building, is there presence in the USA the reason ? They seem to run training schools not only for manual trail building and advocacy but using mechanical building.

Do we suffer a lack of machinery here in Aus. ? Are we stuck in the past and those who do build trails don't want to shift to machinery 'cause they have always swung a pick ? Is it a lack of land and most people are surreptitious about building trail, so most of the digging is illegal ? I know locally of late there has been tremendous leaps forward in gaining legal access to several areas, in fact there is so much legal land to build on and no trail building happening. This year there has been no track building at all to speak of, are clubs and organisation busy concentrating on events which is what seems to have happened locally) and trail building is falling by the way side ?

Locally we have used mini excavators and that's it.


As an aside I don't build trail anymore, got tired of being the only one showing up at a trail working bee and frustrated because I needed several people in order to be able to build interesting features ie its tricky moving large boulders by your self for example. I did enjoy building and hope to do some more some day if the opportunity to do so presents itself elsewhere but locally everyone concentrates on events and there is little to no interest in building trail.

 

[thecat]

I know we have no IMBA equivalent in Aus

We do now.

or soon will once Nick Bowmen has time to settle into the job. MTBA are going to part fund his position for a couple of year to get IMBA aus standing on it's own two feet.

Do we suffer a lack of machinery here in Aus. ? Are we stuck in the past and those who do build trails don't want to shift to machinery 'cause they have always swung a pick ?

Experienced and licensed operators and the need to comply with workcover might be an issue.

Personally while I can see machines being handy, and have used mini loaders in the past, I do prefer the hands on approach of pick and shovel, sculpting the trail rather than smashing it together with a machine.

Of course there are better operators out there who may well be able to sculpt with a bobcat using finesse and a gentle hand...

The other problem with machines is that you tend to need to make the trail corridor wider to accommodate the machine in the first place. This in itself can scare some landmanagers who you've spent ages convincing that your sport is minimal impact.

I remember Tony Griffith for forest Wales giving a talk a few year back. It was all going great but you could just see the colour drain from NPWS personnels faces when he expained that they clear a corridor for the machine, make the trail in the middle and then let the sides regrow...


Another issue is cost. At that meeting Tony was quote something like 70pounds per meter to construct a trail.

when you are looking at a couple of hundred $$$ per day + operator cost it... It's a lot of money to do what you could do with a bunch of volunteers in 2 days instead of 1.

 

[Trevor_S]

We do now.

Sorry I meant an IMBA equivalent that has been up and running for decades with a track record behind it not something that no one knows anything about and probably won't for at least (if at all) another decade at minimum.

Experienced and licensed operators and the need to comply with workcover might be an issue.

I am not sure you need to be "licensed" to operate such small machinery ? Do you ? I also think correct machinery selection is needed. ie "bob cats" etc are a waste of time IMO.

The other problem with machines is that you tend to need to make the trail corridor wider to accommodate the machine in the first place. This in itself can scare some landmanagers who you've spent ages convincing that your sport is minimal impact.

I remember Tony Griffith for forest Wales giving a talk a few year back. It was all going great but you could just see the colour drain from NPWS personnels faces when he expained that they clear a corridor for the machine, make the trail in the middle and then let the sides regrow...

and yet QPWS locally use Bulldozers on occasions to make walking trails. Do you think it comes down to land managers haven't been shown the benefits /results ? There does seem a level of hypocrisy

That aside I don't see walkers out constructing trails, Parks / Council does it (or funds it and builds via subbies). Is this a trend that needs to happen with MTB ? or will the associated bureaucracy bring with it more problems then it solves ?

Another issue is cost. At that meeting Tony was quote something like 70pounds per meter to construct a trail.

when you are looking at a couple of hundred $$$ per day + operator cost it... It's a lot of money to do what you could do with a bunch of volunteers in 2 days instead of 1.

Fair enough, you must get lots of volunteers I was thinking about 10 or 20 to 1. The stuff I have been involved with locally would take 5 volunteers 10 days to build, rather then a 2 days. The only equipment I have ever been involved with are a mini x and a power carriers.

I agree with costings. So I guess the next step is to pressure government to have MTB recognised so grant applications can be submitted for funding, along with cash raised from events and possible trail sponsors ?

Thanks for the input. I was looking for why we (Aus.) seem so far behind the USA and other areas in mechanising trail building. It's more a philosophical interest as I am not involved with trail construction any more.

 

[thecat]

I am not sure you need to be "licensed" to operate such small machinery ?

Depends where you are using it and under what approval process.

Forest NSW need you to be licensed just to operate a chainsaw.

Other sites I've worked on I've had to get "accreditation" to be allow to operate anything.

That aside I don't see walkers out constructing trails, Parks / Council does it (or funds it and builds via subbies). Is this a trend that needs to happen with MTB ? or will the associated bureaucracy bring with it more problems then it solves ?

I'm divided on that. As riders we know what we like to ride much better than a subbie who is more use to making flat roads.

Have a bit of a look at recent discussion regarding what many riders view of the dumbing down of Manly Dam. They have followed that model of subcontracters being hired to do maintenance work.


Sure if it was people like Jacobs or Barnsie getting the contracts that would be an issue but like most organisations I'm guessing Np would be going with lowest quote over previous experience.

Involving the riding community in in volunteer programs also gives them a connection to the project.

I'm sure you know the feeling, after hours and hours spent building you have far more respect for the trail.

I'm not sure what happens up your way in regard to volunteer programs but I do know Blue Mts National Park has an active volunteer program to help out with maintenance and clean up day of walking trails.

They also engage other user groups suck as rockclimbs with "Cliff care" programs and like.

Fair enough, you must get lots of volunteers

Sometimes we get a heap sometimes it's just me....

The only equipment I have ever been involved with are a mini x and a power carriers.

Yeah I think they are two of the most useful items. Small enough to get in to the job with out too much effort and very handy for the hard work. post hole digger would be handy too.

I agree with costings. So I guess the next step is to pressure government to have MTB recognised so grant applications can be submitted for funding, along with cash raised from events and possible trail sponsors ?

There are some grant options out there. Unfortunitely you almost need a full to grants applicant writer to be able to put in for them. Often they are lengthy document full of unfamiliar terms with short cut off periods.

There was a round of Cycle path development funding in the first jobs creation package. Unfortunately it ruled out MTB specific trails but I think you could have worked it if you could lable your trail as multiuse and were able to demonstrate job creation from it.

the latest round was a little less restrictive.

 

[Trevor_S]

Forest NSW need you to be licensed just to operate a chainsaw.

Same up here, a ticket for a chainsaw BUT not for a small excavator... go figure

 

[who...?]

I am a licensed operator for a bobcat but i can also operate excavators, loaders, rollers and a few others and i would say i am quite skilled a operating a bobcat.

I love building trails but i would never use machinery to do so as it dose do a lot of damage to the landscape around it but i dont see the harm in building jumps or jump tracks with a machinery.

But then again i was building jumps and tracks when i was 12 by hand and have always done so and i dont think there is any better way to do it there is nothing better then getting out there by your self or with some mates and slaving for weeks building an awsome trail/ jumps and then at the end of all your hard work getting to hit up the trail/ jumps you have worked hard to build. (Beer is recommended at the end of each working day)

 

[Trevor_S]

I love building trails but i would never use machinery to do so as it dose do a lot of damage to the landscape around it

I pretty much disagree with that, but that's okay.

Some chat here on using machinery
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=540283

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=541698

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=501472

and IMBA in the USA runs trail building schools for local clubs to train operators on using machinery to do trails.

I have worked a bit helping trail with a mini x (not operating) here we are collecting larger rocks as we go along to use as trail features (for example)

 

[dcrofty]

Yeah I've done one of the IMBA US courses and also an IMBA Canada one when I was in Vancouver. The second course in particular had a couple of machines there and we got demos and had a go at building trail with them. In addition I did some paid trailwork over there where we used a bobcat MT52 and a mini excavator. The Yanks are big on their machines but I think thats a bit because they have trailwork machines to make their walking trails and then have just started adopting them for MTB.

In some areas where the soil is suitable they are fantastic for pushing miles of benchcut trail that would take vollies months to do, but in other areas they aren't really that useful. The other big problem is the cost. Some of the specialised machines like the Sweco's and those sort of things cost up to $60K US so possibly close to $100K landed here. Personally if I was to buy a machine for trailbuilding I'd probably get a mini ex, they are just so versatile, especially if you could get one with an angled front blade.


Locally Glen Jacobs used an excavator a lot to do the stromlo trails too so it does happen a bit here.

 

[trav]

I think that some trail constuction just simply can not be done by hand,like moving, placing boulders and moving large meterage of soil.

In the hands of a skilled operator, machinery will not cause noticable damage,if it does it just a clean up on your way out with it.

At the You Yangs we use both a Bobcat and Excavator in conjunction with each other for efficiency.

 

[chips_with_everything]

Leaving aside construction, what tools and light machinery are recommended for track maintenance?

Gear that can be carried on a bike or in a pack preferably.

 

[k_d]

Leaving aside construction, what tools and light machinery are recommended for track maintenance?

Gear that can be carried on a bike or in a pack preferably.

My kit includes:

• Shovels
• Pick
• Metal rake
• Plastic rake
• Saw
• Crowbar
• Axe
• Hammer
• Plasterers smoother (can't remember what they are called)

If I dont have a car with me, I only take a small shovel (the best ones are the 4wd/camping ones that fold up).

 

[thecat]

• Shovels
• Pick
• Metal rake
• Plastic rake
• Saw
• Crowbar
• Axe
• Hammer
• Plasterers smoother (can't remember what they are called)

In the car I also try and have

• Firerake/bradshaw whatever you want to call them
• Hand winch, just in case a larger log needs shifting off the trail
• Surveyors pegs, in case anything needs propping up
  
  

In the pack

• secateurs, for a quick bit of pruning

 

[jaseh]

Has anyone had a crack with mini loaders like the Kanga with a 4 in 1 bucket on it?

They are under 1m wide and you can get a kanga kid which is 600mm wide (to fit through doorways) which would be almost perfect for trail building. They come with either lugged tyres or you can put rubber tracks on them for better traction.
I think you could cut in a heap of trail with one of these and then follow with shovels to trim it up.

Working on the side of a hill could be a bit sketchy, especially with the kid.

 

[WildWassa]

"Firerake/bradshaw whatever you want to call them." - thecat.

A McLeod Tool. It will take surface vegetation back to mineral earth as quickly as looking at it.

The technique to using them is. The first guy starts to break up and removes the rough vegetation quickly, using the rake. The second guy follows and starts to expose the earth with the blade, the third guy does a better cut with the blade and the 4th following, removes the last of the loose stuff raking it out of the road and does the finishing with the blade, making sure the last of the vegetation is totally removed exposing the mineral earth.

When you have 6 guys doing it, following on from each other, staying only on their one given task, you can cut a track almost as quickly as someone walking at a slow walking pace.

Having been a NSWRFS volunteer, I know all about using a McLeod Tool and cutting fire breaks. It is the weight of the tool that does the work.

The McLeod Tool is the most disliked tool used by Rural Fire Fighters ... but not a single Fire Fighter will deny the speed of use and efficiency of the McLeod Tool in the hands of a well trained and disciplined crew.

Warren.

PS, Actually, there is another tool that is more disliked than a McLeod Tool by Rural Fire Fighters, ... that is the backpack hand pump extinguisher. If you are cutting tracks during the fire season and making sparks, it can pay to have one of these handy as well.

 

[Plankosaurus]

"Firerake/bradshaw whatever you want to call them." - thecat.

PS, Actually, there is another tool that is more disliked than a McLeod Tool by Rural Fire Fighters, ... that is the backpack hand extinguisher. If you are cutting tracks during the fire season and making sparks, it can pay to have one of these handy as well.

The Rake/Hoe and the Knapsack down here in vic, both are nasty hard work but as you said, you cant deny their usefulness (however much you'd like to just throw them both in the fire and run away laughing madly ).

i havn't actually done any trail building, but i couldn't for the life of me think of a better tool for the job than a rake/hoe. as hard as the work is, it'd be 10 times harder with anything else and with a few people on the task you'd fly along.