McFlow trails and the decreasing diversity of trails

[The Fish]

All I'm advocating for is the trail builders doing less work and leaving the trails at a more 'natural' stage where they tend to evolve by themselves (funny that). The best trails on the planet IMHO are trails that have been built/formed by cattle, horses, goats etc and a few walkers. Having just ridden the 5 EWS stages in Chillan, Chile, apart from some sub 3 min sections in the bike park (lame Mcflow shite), none of them were built by trail builders. I heard that Pinkbike voted this the best overall riding destination of 2014. We don't have many cattle, horses and goats forming natural trails (over hundreds of years) on our small hills, but it's certainly possible to replicate this type of effect.

Round here the 1000s of kangaroos do a pretty good job but it is usually pretty striaght down the hill!

 

[indica]

personalised creations running through the tall pines when one was stuffed it moved.

So when one poorly designed trail became overly eroded you moved the line rather than make a better trail? Perhaps THAT is the cause of the issue?

 

[Johnny Come Lately]

Sorry, but: complain whinge wah wah wah. Ride the trail, don't ride the trail, whatever. Find trails you like, ride them. Find trails you don't like, don't ride them.

 

[Hud]

Everything that can be said has been said.
However one thing that annoys me is whenever some new trail is opened, we have a video shot of some group of awesome riders drifting their wheels out on every berm and corner.
Sure it looks good on camera with the slo-mo spray of dirt and probably feels cool too. But I thought corners were bermed so you can go fast without losing traction?
If a thousand riders do it to a corner before I get there I get there what's it going to look like?

I take great satisfaction in virtually never losing traction no matter how loose/steep/technical a trail is.
My local narrow, off camber, hand cut trails that aren't built to a standard are still in great nick because most of the local riders ride the same.
We built and maintain them and love 'em!

 

[Nerf Herder]

nice novel Rp ... hope you are getting trail you like to ride!

Big thanks to all those doing what they think is right to get us more trail ... I hate over manufactured trail ... but flow trail is better than no trail ... and I just wanna ride

 

[Shadow Puppet]

... I hate over manufactured trail ... but flow trail is better than no trail ... and I just wanna ride

Can't really agree. For me, It's like a golfer saying 'I just want a play golf so if mini golf is going to take over I'm just happy to be playing golf even if it's on a mini golf course. "

Wide smooth gravel trails aren't mountain biking and while some may think that it's making mountain biking more accessible, it's actually ruining what mountain biking is about.

The example I'll give is this, me and a few mates build a fair bit of trail. It's all singletrack, natural and rough. We go looking for rocks and obstacles. Now some other riders who have just started in the sport think that mountain biking is all about smooth flow trail because that's what they see on Facebook pages such as the Derby trails page, blue dirt page and other 'bike Park' pages. It's also what they ride when they go to bike parks. So, because our trails are rough and technically challenging, they go out and start dumbing down the trails we build by removing most of the rocks and technically challenging aspects of our trails. Smooth flow trails they ride at bike parks are doing nothing for their skills. Sure, with skill you can rail the berms and get some decent air at on a flow trail but at the same time without skills you can still ride it easily without any real test of your skills. Plenty of us got into mountain biking by learning the hard way so why do we need to dumb down the sport to attract more riders or make it more accessible as others have mentioned?

When golf started getting popular did they start removing par fives to make it more friendly for the masses?

Go to a few XC races like the interwinter and you see A graders walking A-Lines or not even attempting them, is this because they mainly ride relatively smooth bike Park trails. Not sure you would have got that 15-20 years ago. A grade rode what was in front of them. Skills were just as important as fitness.

I understand that tails need to be built with sustainability in mind but you don't need to build a two meter wide, smooth, gravel bike path to do that.

 

[Elbo]

They are guidelines, not standards. In our quest to gain access we have presented them as standards and restricted what can be done with Australian trails.

This. Thanks for summing up my main point so succinctly!

Flow style tracks are awesome fun, gotta say if you don't enjoy them you probably are realistically disappointed with your own skills. But if it aint a flow style track, that shit should be as wild and wooly with as many surprises, hits flat corners, multi lines, roots rocks and fukcuk you ups as possible. But still without needing to dump more than two gears either direction IMO, that shits just lame.

Skyline on Stromlo is one of my favourite tracks. Its smooth as, but means you can go super fast and I love popping airs over the humps. I love going fast, but I also love super techy stuff and conquering rock gardens and tricky sections through line choice and bike handling skills over just punching through shit and hoping for the best.
I've been riding 15 years and there are still sections of trails in Albury, where I grew up, that I can't ride or get through without dabbing. On the other hand, I've never met a flow track I couldn't ride in its entirety first time. For me it's all about the problem solving aspects of riding challenging trail and the satisfaction that comes from finally riding something that's stumped you for months or even years.

 

[haltz]

Call me crazy, but I've never been bored riding a mountain bike off road. When we go riding most of the time it's away from std mountain biking areas so trails are a mix of moto single track, built by one person and double track, so built trails are the occasional and much fun.

I also find flow trails are about speed - anything ridden fast is fun, so I suppose as my engine has got faster I can make more fun out of trails without many turns.

There is a law in trail building though - you will always piss off some riders whenever you build something or change something .

Also, keep in mind that a lot of changes are necessary to keep the trail sustainable for the number of riders, so busy managed areas almost always get the features described above to keep them operating - eg slowing a corner or moving the apex to stop washing out.

And another thing - if you ever slide your rear tyre, you are part of the the problem not the solution

This is basically what my reply to the op would have said word for word haha well put! To the op, Get out and look around mate, I pretty much make it a point to find a new rad trail per week, most of the time it takes no more effort than simply riding my bike, granted thanks to 20 years of moto trail riding I know exactly where to look for the right single track. Head north a bit, the Watagans are crawling with flowing single track for days on end and thanks to motos riding in both directions the corners always flow for mtb. Take a look around, don't be afraid to put some adventure into your riding and don't base rides around strava segments

 

[Nerf Herder]

The main differences between mtb and golf relate to participation rates and age of the sports.

Participation obviously dictates funding and access to appropriate lands ... pretty sure golf courses compared to both legal and unapproved trails is over 10 to 1. at a guess illegal trails to legal trails is 5:1. I dare say mini golf has more facilities the mtb combined.

Age means evolution. course design has changed substantially since golfs roots in scotland ... the vast number of golf courses in Australia, let alone the world, means that course design has had time and number of iterations to evolve. Contractors and designers have had time to not just skill up, but, old outdated, possibly less skilled operators have had new entrants push them out. IMO, new entrants are still building reputation and far from pushing the boundaries of what can be done.

MTB in Australia is still young ... hell the founders of the sport are still alive and kicking ... and many of our approved trails are less then 5years old. Yet, technology has had a major influence on fragmenting the needs and wants of the participants ... fast smooth trails, fast rough trails, slow kicky jumps, fast long jūmps add rough or smooth, big or small depending on your bias and type of bike. This alone means you cant make everybody happy.

so for those a the point end, if you are getting what you want, then big ups ... if you are at the fringes and not gettīng what you like then step up and get involved and get sum. but for me its just a matter of time and effort and im confident we will get some awesome trails in my life tīme

 

[Boom King]

I think the rise of flow trails is probably closely correlated to the rise of All Mountain bikes and Enduro......., which I still can't define.

Why does everything need to be defined?

Enduro is organic man... It can be whatever you want it to be.

 

[Ky1e]

People who whinge about trail builds seem to be the kinds of people who wash their bike more than ride their bike... Just ride the fucking thing already.
Even better, you don't like the trail then build your own.

 

[Ridenparadise]

They are guidelines, not standards. In our quest to gain access we have presented them as standards and restricted what can be done with Australian trails.

Will this be a proper ASxxxx Australian Standard? There is an AS for walking trails already. Will it be any different or replace this standard? Who exactly is working on this standard? Will a draft be available for public consultation before final publication?

There's already an IMBA Australia guidelines.

 

[Ridenparadise]

Round here the 1000s of kangaroos do a pretty good job but it is usually pretty striaght down the hill!

The only critters that use the falline are birds. Kangaroos may be capable of going down the falline, but all their regular trails are contour trails. Roos don't behave normally when you ride a bike at them.

 

[crank1979]

There's already an IMBA Australia guidelines.

Yes, but bikesarefun said Australian Standard, not new guidelines.

Are the IMBA Au guidelines relevant now that there is no longer an IMBA Au?

 

[Ridenparadise]

Yes, but bikesarefun said Australian Standard, not new guidelines.

Are the IMBA Au guidelines relevant now that there is no longer an IMBA Au?

Bloody good question and could be a curly one too. Our LM has already said IMBA or alternate QPWS standards. While that generally means don't cut or expose roots unless unavoidable, don't chop certain trees or build dirt up around an entire tree base, if we push our luck it may mean 1 way only trail, no bridges and no TTF other than what the hill provides. We cannot lose their support or confidence.

I am going to throw out the one thing that has not come up in the thread: what makes a trail flow? It's not whether it is called a flow trail, it's not about speed or technicality, it is not about trail gradient or isolation. It is about whether the trail allows riders to flow while riding it. The key is good sightlines, avoiding inappropriate, hard braking into unpredictable corners, allowing leaning without slamming your body into trees etc. Some like trails that avoid all this (as previously detailed), but they do not suit the general riding population and they do not survive the test of time - either deserted or changed by others.

Summary:
> "Flow Trail" is a very small subset of flowing trail
> Our historical trails are not the result of foot and animal travel between villages, otherwise inaccessible. They have not been used by small numbers over hundreds (or thousands) of years and had the chance to become truly established
> Modern trail design is not evil and anti-MTB and makes up a very small percentage of all MTB trail - 5% was mentioned and that is accurate where I ride.
> This sort of trail design is demanded by land managers.
> 5 people per day do not ride per location anymore and trails cannot be made like they once were, although they can be maintained in their old style if riders are prepared to help
> Riders who whine and ride and don't dig have no say (both morally and actually)
> Riding DH trails on AM bikes is a reflection of the bike more than the trail or rider. Go grab a rigid, 120mm stem, 580mm bars, 71 degree HA bike from the 80's or 90's and give it a crack!
> Flow in a trail means you have the chance to see, predict and better ride what is coming next, up or down, fast or slow. If you cannot do that for example on the edge of a cliff, then you do not have challenging trail, just dangerous trail
> If you build trail designed so as to exclude 95%+ of riders, then it should be a legal black or double black line. If you do it illegally on land where legal trail work is supported by the land manager, you are being selfish and counter-productive
> Public access MTB trail is not built for the builder anymore. What I build does not belong to me and is not necessarily my favourite style of trail. It is made for the general riding public. The most reliable index of acceptable trail is the chance to have fun riding. If all you want to do is struggle and suffer and prove yourself, then you have a psychological problem and not a trail access problem
> Every trail system should have variety and no one style of trail is best

One more thing - 29ers have changed what people want to ride more than any other influence. The masses bought bikes designed to turn slower, hold speed better and make everything easier. Now it's the fault of trail builders they want that sort of trail??? Want it harder - get a 26 inch or 24 incher.

BTW: today will be a riding day. On all sorts of trail from flow to exposed tech. MTB is good

 

[No Skid Marks]

Summary:
> "Flow Trail" is a very small subset of flowing trail
> Our historical trails are not the result of foot and animal travel between villages, otherwise inaccessible. They have not been used by small numbers over hundreds (or thousands) of years and had the chance to become truly established
> Modern trail design is not evil and anti-MTB debateable and rightly so IMO and makes up a very small percentage of all MTB trail - 5% was mentioned and that is accurate where I ride.
> This sort of trail design is demanded by land managers.
> 5 people per day do not ride per location anymore and trails cannot be made like they once were, although they can be maintained in their old style if riders are prepared to help
> Riders who whine and ride and don't dig have no say (both morally and actually)Yeah fkcu that. I have a two year old right now and no time to dig. I'll ride with my spare time. I have done more than my fair share of digging in the past. IMO, if you're getting payed to dig, you need to dismount that high horse, harden up and take all criticism on board. You're not actually digging in your free time. Not to say your work isn't appreciated or rad, but trail building really is an artform and not everyone will love your work or see what you see. Nor will everyone have the time or energy to appreciate the restrictions you are put under, don't take that personally ;-) I bitch and moan in the Bruce Ridge thread and have done sweet F A work there due to uncomputable timing or lack of time, doesn't mean my opinion isn't important. Just because you're trail building, does not make you the law or give you the right to disrespect original trails, be them legal or not. Not including obvious needs to change tracks.
> Riding DH trails on AM bikes is a reflection of the bike more than the trail or rider. Go grab a rigid, 120mm stem, 580mm bars, 71 degree HA bike from the 80's or 90's and give it a crack! Yes and No.
> Flow in a trail means you have the chance to see, predict and better ride what is coming next, up or down, fast or slow. If you cannot do that for example on the edge of a cliff, then you do not have challenging trail, just dangerous trail Line choices. Flow trails need line choices at least every four meters.
> If you build trail designed so as to exclude 95%+ of riders, then it should be a legal black or double black line. If you do it illegally on land where legal trail work is supported by the land manager, you are being selfish and counter-productive If you are doing any form of trail advocacy work or speaking on behalf of all mountain bikers you should request these trails if you can ride them or not IMO, otherwise you are being selfish. Life is short, I want to ride the trails I want, not what someone else dictates as it suits them or they're getting payed or playing some political game. Cut to the chase. We want challenging trails, make them legal or people will make them otherwise. It is quite obvious from this thread, people want challenging unsanitized trails.
> Public access MTB trail is not built for the builder anymore. What I build does not belong to me and is not necessarily my favourite style of trail. It is made for the general riding public. The most reliable index of acceptable trail is the chance to have fun riding. If all you want to do is struggle and suffer and prove yourself, then you have a psychological problem and not a trail access problem 95% of riders want to struggle, suffer and prove themselves, it's called pushig yourself and honing your skills. Challenging tracks can be made, we see it done. If you can't do it then what are you doing? This is all just semantics and debating what you've said. No idea of how good or bad your trails are sorry, never ridden them.
> Every trail system should have variety and no one style of trail is best Total punters should not be encouraged with stupidly easy tracks to ride mountain bikes IMO. The rest of us learnt without them, and you'll just exacerbate their confidence and cause them premature more severe injury most likely. If they don't like it, make em hate it and move on to some other already sanitized sport.
One more thing - 29ers have changed what people want to ride more than any other influence. The masses bought bikes designed to turn slower, hold speed better and make everything easier. Now it's the fault of trail builders they want that sort of trail??? Want it harder - get a 26 inch or 24 incher. 29ers reflect the majority of riders that have the personality to persure trail advocacy and then encourage tracks they like.
29ers was a marketing exercise. It has run it's course and only the true 29er riders with need for them will ride them in a few more years as they fade out. Some manufacturers and importers have a lot to answer for. Selling just 29ers one year, then none the next, that's down right dirty.

BTW: today will be a riding day. On all sorts of trail from flow to exposed tech. MTB is good

MTB is good, lets not forget that. Flow tracks can and are good too. Skilled riders should be catered for more than novices though. Even if they are the minority, everyone wants to have something to work up too. Fire-roads are aplenty for those that want to ride on smooth safe predictable trails.
The important thing to remember is the more natural unpredictable tracks people are requesting is because it enables the rider to be artistic and creative in how they use the unpredictable obstacles to jump, roll, slam into, etc. These ideals should be a trail builders main objective to replicate IMO, even if only multiple smoothish lines.

 

[pharmaboy]

"Riders who whine and ride and don't dig have no say (both morally and actually)"

Seriously, this is so right, especially given nearly all diggers don't get paid, and riders don't pay to use. The guys who complain most on my local forum are least likely to get off their arses and turn up to a build day.

Want input , then help out, want to whine, join rotorburn

 

[Ky1e]

"want to whine, join rotorburn

Certainly feels that way lately

 

[swaz]

Depends on the trail builder I think. You get someone like World Trail build something and it has been thought through and built to be difficult to ride quickly. Where as you get a failed landscape gardener that has turned his/her hand to trail building and you end up with a McBoring trail.

A natural, high traffic trail is almost impossible to sustain long term without it turning into an erosion nightmare.

 

[haltz]

Just want to say, "what makes a trail flow?".....
THE PERSON ON THE BIKE.