new crit machine

scblack

Leucocholic
howdy all.

thinking I might upgrade the young fellas new ride for the sake of it.

He is a young D grade rider that weighs as much as a wet towell.

so been advised to pay attention to these rides.. Whats peoples thoughts or input? Looking at the $3500 mark.

Argon 18 Galium Pro Frame with sram red (no wheels he would use his own)
Specialized SL3 Tarmac expert.
Giant Advanced SL1.

Obviously the lighter the better...

thanks for any input or other brands. I havent discounted any brand what so ever.

cheers.

RB
I'm going to make a left-field recommendation here. Get him a Ultegra Di2 groupset if he is so small.

Reason for that, I was talking to a mechanic in the new Atelier DeVelo bike shop here in the Sydney CBD. I was comparing my Campagnolo groupset to the newer Ultegra Di2 and how it may be better (or worse). His first comment was that Di2 is easier on the hands. He had been working on a few bikes with Ultegra mechanical a couple of days earlier, and by the third bike, he was finding it hard work physically to change the front gears up.

So maybe for a young fella who is not as strong, having a push-button groupset could mean he wastes less energy on simply changing gears.

Could that be a better upgrade for him than a frame etc, or rather than the SRAM Red? Just thinkin...
 
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RB 24

Likes Dirt
thanks sc.

I had a look at the Giant tcr Ultegra Di2... I didnt really know too much about them so I asked an expert at the Giant shop. He suggested all ok but was a little worried about it being knocked in a crit race and the cost of repairs..


the bike is being passed on to son number 2 so a complete is needed not just parted up.


your thoughts??
 

scblack

Leucocholic
thanks sc.

I had a look at the Giant tcr Ultegra Di2... I didnt really know too much about them so I asked an expert at the Giant shop. He suggested all ok but was a little worried about it being knocked in a crit race and the cost of repairs..


the bike is being passed on to son number 2 so a complete is needed not just parted up.


your thoughts??
SRAM Red is expensive as well. If he crashes with that on, it may be expensive to repair. I'm not sure I follow the problem. Both groupsets essentially do the exact same thing, just Di2 has electric motors and a battery to move derailleurs. If either derailleur or whatever break, they won't be cheap.

The Giant retails for $3,999 so its in your price budget, maybe you could buy without wheels.
 

RB 24

Likes Dirt
cool.

I take that on board. To be honest I havent been unfortunate enough to find out how much new derailer etc might be!

although the only reason why I was suggested sram red was the lbs mentioned that sram are doing crazy discounts on 2011 models still in stock.. hence the reason.

Yeah the tcr fits well and truly in the price range and I have been given a price of $3200 which is a good deal I thought. The only thing that worried me was the 'expert' not saying much for Di2..

mate appreciate your input.

RB
 

Lorday

Eats Squid
And you obviously have your head firmly wedged up your ass.

$3,500 is not a lot of money in the bigger scheme of raising a child. And if he wants to spend it, why the hell is that your problem???

He is spending money on his son, keeping him fit, keeping him competitive and keeping him outdoors - FAR FAR better than buying him a plasma screen and a Playstation wouldn't you think?

Your post is the dumbest thing I've ever read. Just because you are unable to afford a bike like that for your kids does not mean others should spend less. Keep your small mind to yourself.
That's the dumbest thing i've ever read. You can get a Playstation and a good quality plasma a cheaper than the amount this guys spending on his sons bike.

+1 for ultegra di2 though - it's the furture. I've heard of no such problems with performance (and it feels better then RED as well). Some guy on another cycling forum I was on had something replaced and it was pretty cheap (which shut a few people up who were crapping on about electronic shifting being a waste of money vs mechanical setups)
 

RB 24

Likes Dirt
That's the dumbest thing i've ever read. You can get a Playstation and a good quality plasma a cheaper than the amount this guys spending on his sons bike.

+1 for ultegra di2 though - it's the furture. I've heard of no such problems with performance (and it feels better then RED as well). Some guy on another cycling forum I was on had something replaced and it was pretty cheap (which shut a few people up who were crapping on about electronic shifting being a waste of money vs mechanical setups)
yeah true.. was thinking a 42" sony plasma....

I appreciate the heads up on the Di2 replacing etc. I am slowly being led towards the 2012 tcr ult Di2.
 

C Dunlop

Likes Dirt
yeah true.. was thinking a 42" sony plasma....

I appreciate the heads up on the Di2 replacing etc. I am slowly being led towards the 2012 tcr ult Di2.
You're making the mistake that a lot of parents do when buying roadies for their kids. Don't skimp on the process of sitting hm on the bikes. Kids in particular have disproportionately long arms/legs/torsos. Make sure the bike fits. Smart money builds are still frame and wheels. If he ends up getting into road, don't be surprised if he is averaging 400km a week by the time he is 13 or 14. He'll basically need a new group set every year at that point.

I would +1 for SRAM. I hate SRAM, I think it is plasticky junk and haven't had any of their road stuff on my bikes for years, but it is genuinely better for people with smaller hands and it does have far better adjustability in terms of lever reach.

He'll need the bike converted for junior gearing restrictions anyway (no front shifting, or a very small jump in chainring sizes) so shift quality won't really bew of much concern.

So yeah, get a bike that fits, just like you would if you were buying it for yourself. This is my way of saying that you shouldn't get a giant. They have too big a gap between sizes, and if you do go to sell it, when he outgrows it you'll struggle, because giant roadies have even worse resale than giant mtbs, and while giant mtbs are okay, giant roadies genuinely suck the sav for a whole range of technical reasons that I won't bother getting into.
 

RB 24

Likes Dirt
thanks C,

during my travels I have visited a few shops and not plugging anyone nor causing dispespect to others I found cyclespeed awesome and advice sound and practical.. another shop in eastern melb was just frighteningly dismissive of a proper fit for a kid.

We have been given all the lock out lengths and are in the process of getting his current ride transfered for the Aust schools cup.

I for one wont shoot you down on your views on Giant. I am interested so please say or pm if you think others sensitivity may offend.

thanks for your advice and input.

RB
 

C Dunlop

Likes Dirt
These are a few of my problems. They are by no means exclusive to Giant, but Giant seem to take that cake for cramming as many lousy ideas into their frames as they can.

1. proprietary seatposts that you can't swap out for a zero setback jobbie if you have short femurs.
2. headtubes that get too long as bikes go up in size. Just get a more aggressive sloping stem you say? Giant also have gone to an (effectively) proprietary 1.25in upper steerer tube on their higher end bikes, with limited stem options. This is a problem if you have long arms also.
3. one fork that doesn't change rake as you go up in size (at least when I was at a giant dealer). You have shitty understeering in the large bikes (not helped by too much headtube, which takes weight off of the front wheel) and toe overlap problems in XS and S size frames.
4. Same length of chainstay on all bikes. Most brands increase chainstay length be around 0.5 or 1mm as they go up in size, and the fork rake increases similarly, which means front and rear trail changes in roughly the same way, which means that you don't have different handling characteristics across different size bikes.
5. they crack, and they are getting narc-y on the warranty front. We've had customers (I do not work at a giant dealer) who have been turned down on the old "you've changed the spec of your bike, thus voiding warranty". The changes have been as little as tyres or bartape. This is really bad at the giant concept stores, which Giant oz have a stake in, so if the shop says no, giant saves money.
6.Resale is shit, becuase they are so cheap new, and their brand has been devalued.
7. overly sloping top tubes, which make the seatpost flexy, and the back of the frames torsionally flexy. Try getting a large water bottle in xs-m size frames.
8. not enough sizes - 6. For example, cannondale has 7 and trek 8 covering a similar size range, while specialized has 6, but covering a smaller size range.

To be fair, they've got good spec for the money, in terms of groupsets. But the wheels suck and the frames are average at best, and then only in the 54-58 sizes. Anything out of that is lousy. I don't mind their 26in xc bikes. I've had an anthem and a trance and both were good. Their road bikes are pretty poo though.

To put it simply, they have good groupsets for the money. If the best part about your bikes are the parts that are not made by your own company, you've got problems.
 

akashra

Eats Squid
Problems #1, 2 and 3 would seem to be recent ones, as this was certainly not the case for models they had on the market in 2008. Rake definitely changed between the M and L (from memory) on the XTC, and tapered parts only came in recently (2010?).

Constant chainstay length is intention. When you increase the length of the CS to the BB, you change the handling and way the frame descends.

The warranty issues are concerning however, and should be looked at carefully with regards to their legality. This is where abuses of consumer rights starts poking in its ugly head.
 

C Dunlop

Likes Dirt
not really.

most brands change chainstay length as sizes go up. As I said, this co-incides with fork rake increases. For example, in a cannondale, rear stay length gets longer at 54 and 58 (from memory). This increase in chainstay length is to mirror fork rake increases. Rear wheels have a trail measurement too, and the increase in chainstay length is intended to increase rear wheel trail, because they are also increasing front wheel trail by going to the different rake fork.

Sure, it's only half a mm or so here and there, but when you have small customers consistently complaining that their bikes are too twitchy, and big customers consistently complaining of 'oversteer' and slow handling, I think you have a good case for the cheap shortcuts adding up to lousy bikes.
 

RB 24

Likes Dirt
thanks for the info...

funnily enough I did a test. I have a 56cm giant the mrs has a 50cm the big son has a 48cm and the youngest a xs 46cm..

all have the same wheel base length from c of axle to c of axle being 995mm. I thought that was odd.

the xs bike wont fit a drink bottle in.

I am bang on 6ft and not a powerful rider but my seat is I reckon at its max and I can feel the thing flex.. I figure I will ride it till I break it then go and buy a Parlee :)

They are cheap no doubt.. makes me wonder about the other brands like verite and azzuri how they match up?

thanks for the pros and cons guys.. I am in a whole new world with these things and I dont want to piss good money up on a bad descision that will impact on his a) enjoyment for riding and b) his performance.

cheers.

RB
 

RB 24

Likes Dirt
ok...

bit of an update.

Been looking closer at the Cannondale caad10 and my gosh. Nice.

anyone got anything to add onto this bike?
 

C Dunlop

Likes Dirt
ok...

bit of an update.

Been looking closer at the Cannondale caad10 and my gosh. Nice.

anyone got anything to add onto this bike?
They're good. They are very light frames though. I've seen one dented to the point where it could not be ridden because the customer dropped a torque wrench on it.

They did finally get it right with the super six and super six himod, as far as bikes that rode well and were durable. Then they went and pissed in the well with the evo. I handle warranty for a very large bike shop and I feel that may life will get very busy with exploding eve frames in a few months time...
 

RB 24

Likes Dirt
They're good. They are very light frames though. I've seen one dented to the point where it could not be ridden because the customer dropped a torque wrench on it.

They did finally get it right with the super six and super six himod, as far as bikes that rode well and were durable. Then they went and pissed in the well with the evo. I handle warranty for a very large bike shop and I feel that may life will get very busy with exploding eve frames in a few months time...
yeah they certainly are a light frame and look very nice in matte.

I must say I wouldnt be safe putting all my coin into an evo... would be a short lived thing. They sure as light as hell but sheesh..

cheers Mr Dunlop yet again. :)

RB
 

fergo

Likes Dirt
ok...

bit of an update.

Been looking closer at the Cannondale caad10 and my gosh. Nice.

anyone got anything to add onto this bike?
I'm 100kg and have a CAAD10 5 and love this bike. Super responsive for handling and also very quick accellerating. A friend who WAS a Cannondale rep said the alloy frame is lighter than 80% of the carbon frames on the market. As a mtb rider, I couldn't justify better than 105 spec for training on, but so far I havent needed better either. Rode the Alpine Classic 2012 and Around the Bay 2011 and received lots of compliments and comments re how it looks and they wish they had one or were looking to get one. Did each ride comfortably on the bike.

I recommend getting one.
 

RB 24

Likes Dirt
thanks Fergo,

it appears to be leading the race at the moment. A young kid handed my a$$ to me last night on one and he loves his.

thanks
for the info.

cheers
 

RB 24

Likes Dirt
Deal done!

Cannondale Caad10 in the Ultegra spec. Need some new custom wheels (thinking AM mags) and he is set with a bike lighter and cheaper than any carbon one I could have got.. and besides that a happy boy!

thanks all for their input and advice. Your champs.

RB
 
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