Professionalism, or Cheating?

[Stevob]

When doing 6hr enduros I usually ride at a similar pace to the elite girls. Quite often I've had them draft behind me for some time. That's fine by me. I enjoy the conversation in a 6hr event. The only downside I see is that I can't burp, fart, swear or spit for a while.hwell: That in itself is more detrimental to my performance than any mental anguish from being drafted.

 

[serowe]

Keep in mind that some of these events (not all) are used as steppoing stones to other, bigger events and even better sponsorship deals for the riders themselves. If looked at on these contexts the question should probably be more 'is it ethical' rather than 'is it legal'. Having seen, first hand, the tactics of some elite riders in VIC, I question both the ethics and morals of some (a very small few btw) of the so-called 'elite riders'.

 

[Antsonline]

There are a number of very interesting aspects to consider here.
The first is that people at the front arent racing for just pedals and a 26" tyre. Sure - thats what the punters see them receive, but many riders have contracts with sponsors that make it possible for them to race. They are certainly not racing for prizes (unless cash).
The overall XCM series, with individual wins, and series prizes was worth over $10,000 to the winner. Thats proper money.

WRT the Fling, i have been involved in both the 50km and 100km 'elite' in recent years. Its VERY interesting that they 50km riders start with the 100km riders. Do the 50km have a right to draft the 100km riders? Should the 50km riders get involved in the 'bigger' race? To say that they might affect the outcome of the race is true - but its not always because they are helping the 100km riders.
Consider this - which happened this year - a 50km rider is riding in the lead 'bunch', and actually loses a wheel, or causesthe 100km riders behind him to slow down - and lose contact with the front.

The drafting thing is fine. I am part of a team, and if we were all racing together, of course we would help out our team-mates, friends etc. In fact, even if there was a friend who rode on a different team - you might help them too.

An interesting question to ponder is this....lets assume that a rider like Jenny Fay (but could easily also be Peta) is strong as hell on a fire-road, but not as quick on singletrack when compared to male MTB riders. Is it ok for the males to draft the female on the fire-roads? Because if the woman was seen drafting the guy, in that sencario, then all hell would break loose and people would be reported.

Furthermore - the feeding - riders have been 'fed' this year when it was clearly stated in the rules that they shoulds not receive outside assistance. The reponse from riders was "I didnt know who it was, I just had a bottle thrust in my direction". Are they to be blmaed for taking it, when a well meaning supporter helps them...?

As a final point (can you tell I am passionate about this?!?!?) - if we want the sport to grow at the top end in Australia, then teams, team riding, tactics, and individual rider strengths within a team should be welcomed and publicised. It makes it exciting if you know that Shaun can sprint, so Roackstar want a sprint finish, yet others (lets say Blairy and Trent) want to neutralise that effort. Furthermore, sponsors put money behind teams - so lets get more coverage of the teams, and the thinking ahead of races - to repay the sponsors efforts and investments.

I, for one, know that many of my non-elite riding friends are always interested when I explain all the race tactics, and alliances that are formed. It brings the race to them - and they get more involved as a result....

 

[LastMile]

I have no problem with the old roadie tactic of sending someone up the road early in the race to help out with pacing later on, but I think starting in the early wave of the Fling and soft pedalling until the elites catch up is crossing a line.

I've never been a fan of the later elite start wave in the Fling. Apart from the passing issues it creates later in the race it also changes the dynamic of the elite race. If you're fast enough to keep up with the 50km leaders you can get a tow through the first 25-30km, but if you can't hold onto that paceline you're often stuck in no-man's land having to do a lot of work early on your own, or sit up and wait for another bunch, losing more time. I think the race plays out very differently compared to other mass start events.

 

[alchemist]

Furthermore - the feeding - riders have been 'fed' this year when it was clearly stated in the rules that they shoulds not receive outside assistance. The reponse from riders was "I didnt know who it was, I just had a bottle thrust in my direction". Are they to be blmaed for taking it, when a well meaning supporter helps them...?
.

that's almost as good as Hamilton's 'vanishing twin'

Rom Akerson was disqualified from this years La Ruta de los Conquistadors for something similar, although only after he kept accepting help after receiving a warning.

 

[akashra]

It is only illegal if the rules state so eg as oo does, for lap enduros eg 6 hrs it is hard to police! occasionally I will wait for the a faster rider to pass so I can sit on them, if it is a elite rider usually not for long, is that wrong or just tactics. Usually I just get blown to pieces and lose time recovering, from lactic overload.

I think what John has said here is most critical - "what do the rules say?"

We have actually talked about and discussed this as race officials and commissaries, and it ultimately comes down to whether or not you consider a person in another category to be considered "outside" in the term "outside assistance".
Within the same category I don't believe it's a concern at all (although I guess there is the possibility in, say, a XCEN event you could have someone in the same category multiple laps down there for that sole purpose).

If this is something that race organisers care enough about, they should write it in to their event rules - something to the effect of "For the purpose of the definition of 'outside assistance', this will apply to and include all assistance provided by any rider not competing in the same category%, including and not limited to drafting and the passing of food, water and mechanical supplies".
Where I have placed the % you could also insert (if you wanted it to be applicable to your event) " and riders within that category not on the same lap of the race in progress".

When situations like this occur, if it's not in the rules sometimes the best thing to do is just react by closing the loophole for next time round.

Whether or not it is outside the rules or bad sportsmanship are two separate distinctions.

 

[Bushranger]

Does MTBA who sanction the event have any rules? (I know some events are not sanctioned by them.

Regardless of explicit rules - there is no defence to the blatant poor sportsmanship of having someone who isn't in the same category, who hasn't had to endure the same fatigue to be placed in the position they are in, to commence helping another rider.

These people doing this need to have a good hard look at themselves.

The sport is largely a participation event. The elite are a tiny tip of people who had the desire + genetics to win. Race directors by and large focus on the majority and rightly so. Elite racing rules would be an afterthought at best.

Perhaps their desire to win outweighs their sense of judgement in terms of fairness of competition.

I would go far as to say team tactics where one team has 4 or 5 riders against some elite individuals who have no team makes for an unfair situation.

If you want team tactics the whole race changes and it would be a case of saying, OK, you need a team of 2,3,4 or ### to enter the elite category, otherwise you enter the solo "open" category.

I find it rather amusing the way some elites carry on, contrast with the excellent standard that some others. We've all got stories of elites swooping past and being "bullish" in their behaviour, but then at other times, such as what occured to me riding up a hill in a race last year I was on struggle street and one of the elites gave me a bit of a push up the hill as they lapped me - - - - shit, outside assistance, I should of disqualified myself!

At the end of the day, we are answerable to ourselves and our makers. Our family and friends. Same goes for drug cheats or people who don't play by fair and square rules in any walk of life. If you can't hold your head high, if you can't put hand on heart and be satisfied that you gave your best AND FAIREST efforts then any win isn't worth obtaining.

 

[.stu.]

I think the advantage of following another rider is being greatly underestimated by a lot of people. A couple of years ago I competed solo in a 12hr race and for the first 3 laps I followed a rider in a mixed pair doing 3-on 3-off. By following his wheel at a pace slightly faster than what I might have done by myself I was able to gain enough of a lead on the other solo riders to eventually win the race. Did we plan it beforehand? No. Was it the only factor that got me the win? No. Did it help to follow a faster wheel to judge speeds into corners in single track etc, thereby letting me relax and just follow? Damn straight it did. So my point is that this could give a significant advantage, especially if planned by experienced teams who have the resources to enter multiple riders in various categories just to get one rider onto the top of the main podium.

As for making policy to stop it and also for enforcing policies to stop it, I don't think that is needed at this stage. Although it sounds like many people have noticed it. Unless it gets to the extent that certain individuals and/or teams are using it so regularly that it makes a significant difference to their results over a number of events then it hasn't really had enough of an effect to be worth putting resources in place to stop it. Also, if it continues to be frowned upon as it has been here then teams and riders will tend to use it sparingly if at all. Naming and shaming would probably do more to stop it happening than trying to enforce rules anyway.

 

[pharmaboy]

Also, if it continues to be frowned upon as it has been here then teams and riders will tend to use it sparingly if at all. Naming and shaming would probably do more to stop it happening than trying to enforce rules anyway.

Shaming only works if they think they did a bad thing. In a race a couple of years ago, there was a le mans start that was very long - a number of pointy end teams used a seperate runner in running shoes, then swapped to the number one rider who was waiting with clips on. I bring it up because the team i know of, were adamant that it was allowed in the rules (the rules certainly hadnt thought of the circumstance), as it wasnt disallowed. Otherss thought it was unfair and tantamount to cheating.

The point is, if people think they are acting within the rules there isnt any embarrassment and so shaming does nought.

Rules need to be clear.

 

[driftking]

Shaming only works if they think they did a bad thing. In a race a couple of years ago, there was a le mans start that was very long - a number of pointy end teams used a seperate runner in running shoes, then swapped to the number one rider who was waiting with clips on. I bring it up because the team i know of, were adamant that it was allowed in the rules (the rules certainly hadnt thought of the circumstance), as it wasnt disallowed. Otherss thought it was unfair and tantamount to cheating.

The point is, if people think they are acting within the rules there isnt any embarrassment and so shaming does nought.

Rules need to be clear.

+1, teams only need to operate within the rules and if they find a loop hole majority of them will use it.
We see it everywhere, i remember in V8 to use both tires the team decided to run two different compounds on the car for a stint and it payed off big. implied rules and rules are a fine line morally but on paper they are clear and if there is a performance advantage to be had most will take it.

 

[Markymark188]

MTB racing is always two races in one

Intersting conversation.

I think it nicely highlights the issues ALL MTB racing in Australian is currently struggling with.

Elite (Competitive) racing is required to bring sponsors, media, money, fame etc (No fortune this is MTB after all).. people grow up wanting to be as fast as .... (insert super racers name here). It sells bikes, accessories, parts, upgrades, race tickets etc.

BUT - without the PUNTER - probably 70% of the total field - we cannot hold these races as 50 (ish) Elite riders don't make a race or an event. This is perfectly highlighted by the National XC series. MTBA have spent HEAPS of money to provide races for a few (I'm one of those few..). It's simply not viable for long periods of time.

This is true for XCO, XCE, XCM etc...

Trying to hold a fantastic race which allows the ULTRA Competitive to race and yet appeal to the masses is a tough, tough game. RESPECT promoters..

I'm very glad we know have so many races available to race these days that we can now settle in to worry about drafting a team mate, a buddy or a stranger.

DISCLAIMER - I was helped through the final stage of the TOUR OF TIMOR in 2011 - wthout the help of my "team mates" I'd still be pedalling.

Forever thanks to Greg and Phil...

 

[xc turbine]

My question is, did you ever ask said riders about the incident, or mention this to the race commissaire? There's always another side to the story. The rider who helped his team mate may have had a mechanical, or had a hunger flat, realised his race was over but that he could help out a team mate.

*Edit: just saw the bottom of the initial post. No response does cause you to think something suss was going on*

The reason I say this is, presumably this guy has paid his entry fee, food, transport etc. Would he really want to just sacrifice his race? If he truly did its his loss. If his team mate is going for a win presumably there will be other riders up the front to draft, if the guy wasn't then who really cares about the few seconds he made up to secure a win in the battle for 16th place. When it comes down to it unless this guy secured a decent amount of prizes that he may not have otherwise won, I don't think mountain biking is a serious enough sport for it to really matter. Does it really make your race worse if you come 23rd rather than 22nd?

To answer the question, if the team mate did give him a draft past all the other guys in his race and for some reason those guys couldn't also draft him, and he went on to beat them, and got a podium it could be considered cheating, but as others have said the rules are not clear. Otherwise its hard to call it anything other than pointless and a waste of one guys race.

 

[Bushranger]

DISCLAIMER - I was helped through the final stage of the TOUR OF TIMOR in 2011 - wthout the help of my "team mates" I'd still be pedalling.

Forever thanks to Greg and Phil...

Ah yes, but I bet they started the stage with you, and rode to that point and NOT started earlier, went up the road, had a rest and refuel and waited, or drove up the road, then got out and started riding etc.

the initial example given in this case was a rider who was not as fatigued as the rest of the competition as he was in a totally different race and didn't have to ride as far to get to that point, getting involved in the race to assist a specific person.

It is clear outside assistance. It may not be covered by existing rules - because as mentioned RD's have enough to worry about instead of focussing on all the devious and dirty ways some people will go to in order to win a few peanuts and 5 minutes of fame.

Do we really want MTBing to go down the path of road cycling where so many events are pre-determined and prizemoney simply distributed to those that cooperate with that predetermination. Do we want teams involved in races against individuals. You can' stop alliances forming. MTBing hasn't got the depth to support a team based format at present, maybe in the future.

Yep, interesting discussion. Lets not exagerate the influence of professionals, MTB races like those in the real XCM series would still attract 99% of their entrants. Just like the city to surf. The pro runners turn up and give us something to go "wow" at, but everone would still do the race if they weren't there. Pro's attract a little media coverage and sponsorship, which in turn can attract competitors. Pro fields are not 30% of the field either. I'd say there are at most a dozen contenders in a race the size of the fling, and 3 or 4 on the female side of events.

Note the original poster did mention contact was made to the team concerned and no response given.

 

[frensham]

Hmmm. There seems to be some conclusion that the Fling is the race in question. Was it? The only place on the 112 km course where there was a 'significant headwind' for kms of fire road was on the return to Wingello (Lawyers Lament etc). The 59 km category did not race on this loop of the course. There certainly was not any sort of 'significant' headwind on the two loops that the 59 km category rode on. So, it could not have been the Fling.

 

[Bushranger]

Hmmm. There seems to be some conclusion that the Fling is the race in question. Was it? The only place on the 112 km course where there was a 'significant headwind' for kms of fire road was on the return to Wingello (Lawyers Lament etc). The 59 km category did not race on this loop of the course. There certainly was not any sort of 'significant' headwind on the two loops that the 59 km category rode on. So, it could not have been the Fling.

I don't know how the fling got brought into it sorry about that if it's not the race in question.

 

[GeurieMTB]

Im not saying which race it was because I really dont want to "out" anybody or throw stones. The specific race should be irrelevant anyway.

I have heard from the team subsequent to my first post. They have claimed that the shorter distance rider had stomach cramps for the start of the race which is why he was going slow, he apparently picked up when his team mate arrived. Contrary to what the witnesses have said the team is claiming that their two riders only rode together in singletrack.

Its really only the riders involved who would know, the race is run and won, lets move on.

This has been an interesting discussion though, hopefully it will highlight the disparity between pointy end riders, some sponsored and well "supported", other running effectively solo races. maybe the suggestion that we have Elite (team) and Elite (solo) categories has merit.

 

[sossy]

What is stopping other competitors jumping on the wheel as well to get the benefit?

 

[akashra]

What is stopping other competitors jumping on the wheel as well to get the benefit?

Potentially the ethics of whether it counts as "outside assistance" in their mind - whether or not they want to test the rules?

 

[cleeshoy]

What is stopping other competitors jumping on the wheel as well to get the benefit?

or individuals banding together to make an unofficial team?

 

[driftking]

My question is, did you ever ask said riders about the incident, or mention this to the race commissaire? There's always another side to the story. The rider who helped his team mate may have had a mechanical, or had a hunger flat, realised his race was over but that he could help out a team mate.

I don't think that really justifies it at all, the issue at hand is unfair advantage to other competitors, if the other guy flatted or had a mech he is still giving an advantage to his team mate and disadvantaging the other riders, who know if it was a another race that draft might have help him catch the front pack and later take the win. Regardless of the other riders situation the issue stands with the disadvantage it offers the others and if that crosses the line as fair competition.

This reminds me of the skin suit debate at what point do we then start banning clothing or gearing because its unfairly better. Id hope non but any external aid in a single individual competition to me seems like its a line crossed.