Rear suspension on Giant Trance

[Beej1]

Hi All,

I am interested in getting a Giant Trance (either buying the 1 and swapping parts, or hopefully finding a decent frame), and have a question about it's rear suspension.

Giant lists it as having 4.2in of travel, and it has either a Fox Float R, RP2 or RP23 Shock depending on model (2, 1 or 0 respectively). I was wondering what determines the 4.2in of travel? Is it the physical limitation of the frame itself, or is it the shock? or is it a combination?

I realise that the physical limitation of the frame has to come into effect - it can't have endless travel. But I was wondering if perhaps a longer travel shock is able to be inserted, maybe pushing it up to 5in or slightly more travel by extending the swingarm out by 0.8 of an inch or more? The Fox website seems to list each of the 3 aforementioned shock's as being available in a number of lengths.

And I guess while I'm at it, if this IS possible, could you do the same thing to a Specialized Epic with it's whole Brain thing going on? I'm keen on an Epic Marathon frame in this forum, but wondered if you could push it from 100mm out to 130mm travel?

Thanks in advance for any info. I've been lurking around here trying to find an answer to this for a week or so but my searching is known to be not-so-great in the past.

 

[Nebuchernezzer]

It's both.
The frame has been designed with a certain shock (with a certain shaft travel length) in mind.
So the system of levers that makes up the rear end of the bike has (for example, i'm making up numbers here) been designed so that as the rear wheel travels through 4.6" the lever that attached to the shock moves say 1.5".
If you fit a longer shock the rear end of the bike will jack up some, likewise with a shorter shock.
If there is another shock with the same length but a longer stroke (for example 1.75" stroke instead of 1.5" used in the example) then you WILL get more travel provided that the frame can handle it, maybe parts of the rear end will start to come into contact with parts of the mainframe and other such nasties.
Easy enough to work out if you remove the shock and actuate the rear end manually though.

 

[TonyG]

nuclear_powered,

Are you looking to keep the same geometry but have greater suspension height? because if you are only looking for slightly greater suspension height you would be better to just get a Reign than play with the suspension geometry of the Trance. (I have a Reign)

Tony

 

[Beej1]

Easy enough to work out if you remove the shock and actuate the rear end manually though.

Thanks for that N. I'll keep lookin - see if I can find an example of someone doing the kinda mod I'm after. Then, if all else fails I might borrow my friends Trance and try your suggestion above.

 

[Beej1]

nuclear_powered,

Are you looking to keep the same geometry but have greater suspension height? because if you are only looking for slightly greater suspension height you would be better to just get a Reign than play with the suspension geometry of the Trance. (I have a Reign)

Tony

Hey Tony ... I have to admit that the Reign is an option, and I've been checking them out as well. But I think i'd like one of them in addition to something a bit more nimble and better on the climbs, and the "in addition to" part is currently difficult to justify $$$wise, so I want to try and kill 2 birds with one stone and get the one bike. Like I said, I've been lurking here for quite a while and I've read nothing but great reviews for the Reign from all it's owners. But I must admit, nobody talks about it's climbing ability as being one of it's stronger points. Most people talk about it as being fantastic on fast flowing DH, extremely capable of big hits, 'able' to climb back up a hill, and not so great on tight uphill corners. I want something initially that can climb nearly as good as a HT, smooth out the bumps on fast flowing DH, and take some decent 3ft hits.

I have ridden a friends Trance and it has bottomed out on a few drops that I've tackled (nothing over 3ft). I thought it might be the weight difference between myself and the owner, but he says it's happened to him as well.

With such a great selection of 5in bikes out there it just seems that all the Trance (or the Spesh Epic) needed was a little more rear travel.

Anyone with an Epic care to comment on their rig in regards to this?

 

[Foggy]

Hi mate,

It sounds as though the Trance is the bike you are looking for. They are very capable of taking 3ft drops and slightly over. When you say you bottomed your friends' Trance, are you sure the shock pressures were set up properly? Like TonyG mentioned, if you are worried about bottoming too much on the Trance, go for the Reign.

I've read nothing but great reviews for the Reign from all it's owners. But I must admit, nobody talks about it's climbing ability as being one of it's stronger points.

I would be one of those owners (own a Reign X1). The best way to describe this would be to say that it is a capable climber, but it is not a fast climber. If you want to race up the hills, then get the more XC orientated Trance. If you want an all-rounder, then get the all-mountain geometry of the Reign.

The Reign's do climb well given their geometry and weight (X1's weigh 15.5kgs, Reign 1's are around 13.5kgs). It certainly isn't a screamer up the hills, but its not so terrible that you curse and wish you hadn't bought it. The climbing ability of the bike is sacrificed for a more stable ride. It will exhaust you if you try to burn up the hill, but if you just relax a little, you will get up the hill no worries in the world - and have more fun on the way down!

Hope this helps, - Mike.

 

[TonyG]

I’ll just let you know I’m not an expert on bike set ups but here’s my take on it. (I just noticed Foggy has made most of these points aswell, but I'll post this anyway so you can think about it)
1-The rear suspension on both the Reign and the Trance are adjustable, so if you are intending on doing bigger jumps you can pump them up a bit more, and then soften it out for XC.
2- Raising the back suspension by an inch will affect the bikes geometry and may have a negative affect on your more aggressive riding.

On a side note, I bought my Reign off a guy who assume was a fair bit heavier than me, and when I first took it out I was getting the feeling of being pushed over the bars when going down hill. After I adjusted both the rebound and air pressure I got a mix that works well for me. I’m 100kgs. I don’t bottom out, but it doesn’t take much adjusting for the back suspension to be either too stiff or too loose. Perhaps your friend could give you another ride on the Trance and bring along the back suspension pump and give it a go at different pressures and rebound.

 

[STS01]

I have an '06 Reign and ride with a couple of guys with Trances. Even compared to the Trance 1, there is very little difference in climbing ability. The weight difference is not detectable (although my Reign is over a kg lighter than stock) and the rear suspension on the Reign has no perceptible bob or chain torque reaction.

The only noticeable differnce is the slightly higher front end on the Reign which could easily be improved with a different or adjustable fork (mine has Pikes).

My advice would be to either get a Reign and put a u-turn or TALAS fork on it or get something that is a more serious XC style bike. The thing is though that unless you're racing XC you'll give up a lot of trail / downhill / drop ability compared to the Reign whereas the Reign gives up very little when it comes to going uphill...

 

[Beej1]

Hi mate,

It sounds as though the Trance is the bike you are looking for. They are very capable of taking 3ft drops and slightly over. When you say you bottomed your friends' Trance, are you sure the shock pressures were set up properly? Like TonyG mentioned, if you are worried about bottoming too much on the Trance, go for the Reign.

Thanks Mike - yeah, I've been thinking about it, and I just don't reckon the Trance should've bottomed out that easily, so like you say - it's probably not pressured correctly (even for the owner who is lighter than me). I will definitely see if I can borrow it for a session and play around with the settings provided I return them to normal.

I am indeed attracted to the Reign though, from the point of view that in the long run I'd love to have a 4 - 5in Trail/Enduro type featherweight screamer to do 80% of my riding on (including hard-arse climbs, and a 6 - 7in AM to do the other 20% of fun stuff. Of all the 6 - 7in AM bikes out there, the Reign looks to be the best in terms of value for money. I just scoped out your pics of your X1 and they look pretty awesome too. But yeah, the Trail/Enduro bike will come first methinks, which is the point of asking all these questions.

Thanks for your help.

Raising the back suspension by an inch will affect the bikes geometry and may have a negative affect on your more aggressive riding.

Thanks TonyG - I appreciate all help even if you're not an expert (I certainly aren't). That's a good point - I guess they set the Trance up with 4.2 and it's geometry for a reason - no point trying to mess with it by slotting a diff. shock in there. I think I'll just scrap that idea and I'll definitely be considering it more now with the only mods in mind being a fork and perhaps stem angle & length. Then some different brakes. Then perhaps upgrade the running gear. Then upgrade the wheels .......

 

[Beej1]

I have an '06 Reign and ride with a couple of guys with Trances. Even compared to the Trance 1, there is very little difference in climbing ability.

...

...whereas the Reign gives up very little when it comes to going uphill...

Thanks STS01 - you're one of the many happy Reign owners I've noticed previously. I'll take that on board (about their climbing ability), but yeah, I think I'll be going for a shorter travel rig to begin with at this stage. I already have an XC machine - a Scott Scale 50 which I have liked very much since purchasing 2 years ago. Now I just want an XC machine with a little 'more' (Trance or the Spesh Epic Marathon I mentioned earlier), and after that an AM machine with 'more' than that again (Reign most likely).

And when I do go Reign hunting in the future, I'll be looking up your year (06) over the 07's - the paint jobs this year are a little ... erm ... anti-climactic?

 

[S.]

Epics are not the bike you're looking for if you want something to flog downhill or abuse in general - they are very much an XC-race style frame. You can't increase travel on them either (well, on the rear anyway) because they use a custom Fox or Specialized shock. From the sounds of it I would really recommend something a bit heavier-duty.

Bikes like Trances (and anything with short travel like that) will bottom out fairly easily regardless of what you do, and it's not a flaw in the bike, it's just a limitation of having short travel. A 3ft drop to dead flat is very often sufficient to bottom out an 8" travel DH bike, so keep that in mind. BTW - bottoming out is not necessarily a bad thing, if you never do it then you're not using all your travel. Again though, Trances are supposed to be an XC race style frame - you might be better off looking at something like an Iron Horse Hollowpoint if you want slightly longer legs with good climbing ability. Unfortunately you're always going to have to make a tradeoff between climbing and descending (and thus abusing, as descending is nearly always where you do that), because the geometry that makes a bike climb well is largely also what makes it descend poorly, and vice versa.

As for the idea of sticking a longer stroke shock into an XC/trail frame - don't! Such bikes are typically fairly steep to begin with, and you will only make them steeper by doing so, which decreases their ability to be flung down hills and thus defeats the point of having more travel anyway. You might be better served by getting a slightly longer travel bike (like a Reign for example) and putting on an adjustable travel fork (U-turn or ETA or TALAS or whatever) that will lower/steepen the front end for climbs.

 

[Beej1]

Thanks for all that S. I am very appreciative of all the input I've received.

Epics are not the bike you're looking for if you want something to flog downhill or abuse in general - they are very much an XC-race style frame. You can't increase travel on them either (well, on the rear anyway) because they use a custom Fox or Specialized shock.

Yeah I noticed in a close up image that the Epic shock looked different to normal Fox Floats (06 model, before they went strictly Spesh suspension). It kinda looks like they're trying to come up with a 'shock for all occasions' with that Brain thing of theirs. I find it kinda hard to fathom that a shock can adjust itself to the terrain automatically - 'Brain' it may be, but it can't exactly see that first drop-off approaching like the human brain can so I can't see how it will know to prepare for that big hit.

But anyway, I've come to the realisation that no single bike will cater to all my needs, so I need to be asking myself which type of bike do I want first? Something with a little more than a hardtail has to offer, or something to be able to take the abuse of going down hills like the black diamonds out at the Youies all day? (which I did manage to descend on my Scale hardtail btw ... albeit uncomfortably).

...Trances are supposed to be an XC race style frame ...

I got the impression from the Giant website that the Anthem is their XC Race type frame in the dual susp. lineup. The Trance seems to be more 'Trail' oriented. While it may sound like I know what I mean there, I don't - I'm pretty sure an XC race take place on the same 'Trail' that a 'Trail' oriented bike rides on yeah? Anyway, assuming it's capable of a little more abuse than an XC Race oriented platform, the Trance is still looking like the number 1 choice.

...the geometry that makes a bike climb well is largely also what makes it descend poorly, and vice versa.

Yeah, I'm beginning to realise this. More ammo to convince +1 that I need 2 more bikes

As for the idea of sticking a longer stroke shock into an XC/trail frame - don't!

Yeah, I've realised this too now. Short of becoming skilled in the arts of metallurgy, I think I'll leave frame geometry and the like to the experts.

 

[S.]

Thanks for all that S. I am very appreciative of all the input I've received.

Yeah I noticed in a close up image that the Epic shock looked different to normal Fox Floats (06 model, before they went strictly Spesh suspension). It kinda looks like they're trying to come up with a 'shock for all occasions' with that Brain thing of theirs. I find it kinda hard to fathom that a shock can adjust itself to the terrain automatically - 'Brain' it may be, but it can't exactly see that first drop-off approaching like the human brain can so I can't see how it will know to prepare for that big hit.

But anyway, I've come to the realisation that no single bike will cater to all my needs, so I need to be asking myself which type of bike do I want first? Something with a little more than a hardtail has to offer, or something to be able to take the abuse of going down hills like the black diamonds out at the Youies all day? (which I did manage to descend on my Scale hardtail btw ... albeit uncomfortably).
I got the impression from the Giant website that the Anthem is their XC Race type frame in the dual susp. lineup. The Trance seems to be more 'Trail' oriented. While it may sound like I know what I mean there, I don't - I'm pretty sure an XC race take place on the same 'Trail' that a 'Trail' oriented bike rides on yeah? Anyway, assuming it's capable of a little more abuse than an XC Race oriented platform, the Trance is still looking like the number 1 choice.

Ahhh woops, sorry - yes you're right, the Anthem is the XC race frame Got that one all mixed up. In that case, yes the Trance may be a good choice for you.

The way the Brain shock works is that if the shock itself is jerked around, it opens an "inertia valve" which lets oil flow through like a normal shock. However if the shock isn't being moved around (and it's near the axle so if the axle isn't being bumped around, neither will the shock) then it remains "locked out" which basically means that a person trying to bounce on the bike won't cause the suspension to move (as the axle remains stationary on flat ground even if the person is moving around), whereas bumps that move the axle around will cause the suspension to move. The transition is not *seamless* (though it is adjustable) and the shocks are harsher than a normal bike as a result (at least on the first hit - it stays open for a second or two so any quick consecutive bumps are taken up alright). Again though, the Epics aren't a thrash bike, and the geometry reflects this. If you want something XC-able but with some balls then maybe consider the new Stumpjumpers - some of them have the Brain shock too so they pedal fairly well, but the models that don't have the Brain thing (not sure if any of them are still Brain-less as such) pedal like a trampoline IMO. They've got roughly 5" of travel I think (might be 4.8 or something, I can't remember) and the geometry on them is well balanced between climbing and descending prowess.