strong, light, quality build

[RainbowofDETH]

Probably a thousand of these flying about in this thread, but ahh wells..

Picked up a Bottlerocket a few weeks back now, and am starting to build it up. First thing is, I want it lighter. It weighs 18-19kgs and is not a friendly bike to carry back up a trail. Nearly 4kgs is just in tubes and tyres.. so I have that much sorted out for myself. But I want a lighter wheelset for starters. I have no idea what is actually decent with hubs and rims. I was thinking a set of Mavic 729's in 32h for the front and rear. If anyone can +1 them, that'd be great. I just have no idea on hubs. Needs to be 20mm up front, and 9mm or 10mm in the rear. Bolt up would be sick also. Don't really care if it's a pain to get off, it's like an extra 10 seconds..
Also something for the driveline. New cranks, derailleur, chain, shifter, cassette. The whole lot. Just need a short cage one, so one chainring up front. Can you get the narrow wide chain rings in steel also? I want to ditch the chainguide, and I really like the life of steel sprockets/chainrings etc. Plus I can get away with no bash guard too with a steel one, rather than losing half a sprocket from smashing a rock.
I'm running SLX's for the brakes, which are sickkkkk! Now understand why everyone says once you use Shimano's, you'll never go back to Avid's. Nothing on the power of them, but is it worth the jump to XTR? I've heard they're lighter, but not sure if I can be bothered shelling out the extra bucks if there's not much difference.

Everything else seems to be alright at the moment. So any feedback would be sweet!

 

[guitar1234]

Probably a thousand of these flying about in this thread, but ahh wells..

Picked up a Bottlerocket a few weeks back now, and am starting to build it up. First thing is, I want it lighter. It weighs 18-19kgs and is not a friendly bike to carry back up a trail. Nearly 4kgs is just in tubes and tyres.. so I have that much sorted out for myself. But I want a lighter wheelset for starters. I have no idea what is actually decent with hubs and rims. I was thinking a set of Mavic 729's in 32h for the front and rear. If anyone can +1 them, that'd be great. I just have no idea on hubs. Needs to be 20mm up front, and 9mm or 10mm in the rear. Bolt up would be sick also. Don't really care if it's a pain to get off, it's like an extra 10 seconds..
Also something for the driveline. New cranks, derailleur, chain, shifter, cassette. The whole lot. Just need a short cage one, so one chainring up front. Can you get the narrow wide chain rings in steel also? I want to ditch the chainguide, and I really like the life of steel sprockets/chainrings etc. Plus I can get away with no bash guard too with a steel one, rather than losing half a sprocket from smashing a rock.
I'm running SLX's for the brakes, which are sickkkkk! Now understand why everyone says once you use Shimano's, you'll never go back to Avid's. Nothing on the power of them, but is it worth the jump to XTR? I've heard they're lighter, but not sure if I can be bothered shelling out the extra bucks if there's not much difference.

Everything else seems to be alright at the moment. So any feedback would be sweet!

Mavic 823's are one of the strongest rims you can buy, and the fact that they are tubeless ready makes up for the weight gained over 729's if you choose to run them as such. Hope hubs are rad, simple, reliable, well built and loud as a swarm of bees flying down a hill if that's your thing. They're also available in pretty much every color and axle size combo imaginable.

Truvativ Descendants are pretty light and great value for money. Shimano Zee derailleurs and shifters are meant to be good too, the addition of a clutch is another plus. For chain and cassette, you could buy any road cassette, which would likely be lighter than most DH specific cassettes, hell you could even buy Dura-Ace if you are willing to spend that much.

As far as I am aware nobody makes a steel N/W ring, it shouldn't really matter too much though, if you want protection just buy a chainguide with a taco and be done with it. If you hit your chain that often, damage will be inevitable to a chainring of any material.

Finally, XTR's are nice, they feel awesome, but it is damn hard to justify their price in comparison to XT's or SLX's. If power is what you're after Zee's are great, odds are you could even run your current SLX levers with Zee or Saint calipers with no trouble

 

[Benlow]

1. Wouldn't suggest 729's unless you're a hack, they're quite heavy. If you're reasonably smooth I'd recommend Hope Pro 2 hubs laced to Flow EX rims, can be sourced complete for a reasonable price from CRC. Also tubeless will drop lots of weight, so look into that.
2. Any drivetrain parts made of steel are going to be insanely heavy, also no such thing as a steel narrow-wide ring. However, if you run a narrow wide ring with a direct mount bash guard (current setup on my DH bike) I think you'll be pretty safe.
3. Don't bother with new brakes just yet if you're happy with them, cost to weight lost ratio isn't going to be amazing.
4. Would definitely help to write up a spec list as per the following template:
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?115810-Template-for-bike-specs

 

[RainbowofDETH]

Mavic 823's are one of the strongest rims you can buy, and the fact that they are tubeless ready makes up for the weight gained over 729's if you choose to run them as such. Hope hubs are rad, simple, reliable, well built and loud as a swarm of bees flying down a hill if that's your thing. They're also available in pretty much every color and axle size combo imaginable.

Truvativ Descendants are pretty light and great value for money. Shimano Zee derailleurs and shifters are meant to be good too, the addition of a clutch is another plus. For chain and cassette, you could buy any road cassette, which would likely be lighter than most DH specific cassettes, hell you could even buy Dura-Ace if you are willing to spend that much.

As far as I am aware nobody makes a steel N/W ring, it shouldn't really matter too much though, if you want protection just buy a chainguide with a taco and be done with it. If you hit your chain that often, damage will be inevitable to a chainring of any material.

Finally, XTR's are nice, they feel awesome, but it is damn hard to justify their price in comparison to XT's or SLX's. If power is what you're after Zee's are great, odds are you could even run your current SLX levers with Zee or Saint calipers with no trouble

1. Wouldn't suggest 729's unless you're a hack, they're quite heavy. If you're reasonably smooth I'd recommend Hope Pro 2 hubs laced to Flow EX rims, can be sourced complete for a reasonable price from CRC. Also tubeless will drop lots of weight, so look into that.
2. Any drivetrain parts made of steel are going to be insanely heavy, also no such thing as a steel narrow-wide ring. However, if you run a narrow wide ring with a direct mount bash guard (current setup on my DH bike) I think you'll be pretty safe.
3. Don't bother with new brakes just yet if you're happy with them, cost to weight lost ratio isn't going to be amazing.
4. Would definitely help to write up a spec list as per the following template:
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?115810-Template-for-bike-specs

Eh, I don't really want to do tubeless. Also the Hopes to Flows are all out of stock.. so no go there ;/ there's not much weight difference between the 729's and the Flow's. Like 150g. I can save that much weight by running my bearings dry! not really, but I can save it in tubes easily. I dunno about the 823's. I land sideways a fair bit because I just can't pull a whip back all the way. That's why I thought the 729's would be good. Is there any other rims and hubs? I ran Hopes for a while a year or two ago and wasn't a fan. They just felt like they had heaps of drag for some reason. They just didn't really roll that well compared to other hubs I have/had. I liked everything else about them, but that was there downfall to me.

Usually steel and aluminium sit about the same. Because aluminium has to be bulkier to stand up to abuse, while the steel is strong enough to take it and can be smaller. Regardless I reckon I'll just go with the narrow wide and a bash guard then and replace it whenever the day comes. I'm looking at maybe a Raceface set-up then if I go that way. Cranks and chain ring. Looks neat and I've heard some pretty good things.

Hah, wow! Dura ace cassette is pricey! I guess I'll just search about for a decent ratio/priced cassette and go with that. A mate has the Zee gear and likes it, so I'll just go with that I guess. I'll just stick with the brakes too then if there's not much point!

I'll get up a thread then of the build then soon and link it!

 

[T-Rex]

I'll put in another +1 for the ex823/Hope combo. Been running these for years on several wheel sets.

If you had a problem with the rolling of the Hope hubs, it would have been a maintenance problem, eg a seized bearing or something wrong with the pawls. New or properly maintained, they roll fine. Tyre choice, pressure, and brake pad contact will normally have a bigger infulence on rolling.

And 823s are pretty indestructible, as well as being a reasonable weight. You can run them with tubes. But any rim's ability to withstand you landing sideways is going to be substantially infulenced by the quality of the wheel build.

 

[Puppet Master]

Why don't you want to go tubeless? If you lose 150g in tubes you will get a lot of punctures. If you go tubeless then you will never get a pinch flat again. Mavic 823 are the best DH rims period. Also if you go tubeless, and run MAxxis tyres DON'T get the tubeless version of the Minion/High Roller, just run standard Super Tackys with sealant... The sidewalls on the Tubeless ones are too easy to tear. The other thing with tubeless is you will have to check tyre pressures before each run.

Were the hope hubs you had 2nd hand or new? if they were second hand then old bearings could be your drag culprit, or it could have been brakes dragging, or heavy tyre/tube combo. I've built about 50 sets of hope to 823's in the last few years and nearly all are still good, the only ones that are no good are as a result of crashing, and the only hub issues have been due to lack of maintenance. If you want light, strong wheels and are worried about bearing drag, then get Mavic Deemax Ultimates, rims aren't (quite) as strong as 823's but they do have adjustable bearing tension, the Mavic brand is the best supported of ANY wheel supplier in Australia and parts are very well stocked.

Also if you want to reduce weight then SRAM X0 is the way to go with regards to drivetrain.

Hope this helps

 

[T-Rex]

Why don't you want to go tubeless? If you lose 150g in tubes you will get a lot of punctures. If you go tubeless then you will never get a pinch flat again. Mavic 823 are the best DH rims period. Also if you go tubeless, and run MAxxis tyres DON'T get the tubeless version of the Minion/High Roller, just run standard Super Tackys with sealant... The sidewalls on the Tubeless ones are too easy to tear. The other thing with tubeless is you will have to check tyre pressures before each run.

OP, the Puppet Master makes some good points here.

You want light and strong, definately go tubeless. I didn't make it clear in my earlier post, we also run tubeless on the 823s, but with the proper UST tyres. They are lighter than regular 2 ply DH tyres plus sealant, by maybe 100 - 150g, but as PM says, they are a little more prone to sidewall tears, and i can assure you, you can pinch flat them. And USTs are about 50% more expensive, but you want light and strong, you can't have cheap as well.

Flip side is that because the bead on the regular tyre doesn't key into the inside of the 823 as well as the UST, you can get burping at lower pressures in hard cornering, which is why we went to the proper USTs after a few months of running normal Minions. Also, the USTs hold pressure forever - just tonight I checked a set that have been sitting in the garage for 5 weeks since their last outing, bugger all pressure drop, they are ready to ride.

 

[driftking]

Light and strong hey hmmm.

I think 823 are the most proven for a indestructable rim and running tubeless makes them reasonable weight.

There are lighter rims though wih reasonable strength if 823 are too heavy or overkill for your liking.

 

[RainbowofDETH]

I guess the fact that I have never ridden on them, and know no one personally that uses me just puts me off them. The tubes I have in my bike at the moment are those super thick Maxxis ones. The ones like motorbike tyres. I have ones that are heaps thinner, but aren't Kmart thin, and aren't Maxxis motorbike tubes. They hold up easily. I've never once had a flat on the trail with them. That's why I basically trust tubes still. I run my tyres at roughly 18psi. They don't pinch or anything. So basically that's why I don't want tubeless. I never really have a problem with them.
But I will keep the 823's in mind for tubeless if I just decide to go with it.

Nowwwww. The Deemax's... Where can I find some? Cheapest price! Are they actually worth the money? Overkill?

 

[RainbowofDETH]

Here it is

http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?272155-Transition-Bottlerocket&p=2748062#post2748062

 

[driftking]

18psi damn.

I can't run under 30psi on some of my trials without pick flating with thick maxxis dh tubes.

823 are well tested and tried, the only negative is they are heavy for a race rims, but that weight comes with a tubeless and virtually indestructable rim that hands plenty of abuse.

If you are light and good on wheels deemax are probably something to look at. They take more maintaining though. Or if you want to go super lighter spank spike egos are crazy light and from what I read pretty strong for thier weight. But they are a race rim.

It depends what budget you have you can get really light wheels with a good build.

Keep in mind rotational weight is drastically amplified as it spins so any weight at the rim/outter of the wheel (tires and tubes) is multiplied by approximately 2x.

 

[RainbowofDETH]

Oh yeah, the hopes I had were brand spanking new! I ran them on my dirt jumper and was occasionally riding around brakeless and I could still feel it.

Yeah I've seem a few reviews of the Deemax's that are good and bad. Mainly good.. for their price, I'd sort of hope I never had an problems with them!
My budget is really anything. I'll just save up for it if it's actually worth it!

 

[rednightmare]

I reckon you can't go wrong with 729s. Very strong rims that hold up to a lot of abuse. I've had mine for 7+ years and despite a dint or two, still going strong. I don't mind the slight weight penalty considering the rim's durability.

Things to keep in mind with Deemaxes are their spokes which aren't 'standard'. Meaning that if you break a spoke, your LBS is unlikely to stock any. I've heard of people having to buy whole bunch of spokes (which adds up $$$) because they couldn't buy them individually.

 

[RainbowofDETH]

Yeah I spotted that with the spokes. Which is a pain! I dunno if it's really worth it. Though I've never ever broken a spoke with any of my wheelsets anyway.

 

[Puppet Master]

Spokes are readily available from Mavic's Aussie disto. Any good bike shop that does DH stuff should stock them. The shop where I work always has them, as all but one of our team guys runs Deemax, (the other is 729 on Hope, but as soon as he breaks a 729 they'll be replaced with 823's ). They aren't cheap $6 a spoke for the Silver deemax spokes and about $12 a spoke for Deemax ultimate bladed spokes. The do require special tools for the spokes and bearing tension adjustments, but they come with the wheels. and they require a freehub service a little more than others, but it take about 5 minutes if you do it regularly and there isn't too much crap in there.

18PSI !!!! wow you must weigh less than my left leg! T-Rex is spot on about burping with the non-UST tyres, but you just check the pressure after you've had a "moment" and it's fine. he's also right that proper UST tyres hold air much better, both my xc and am rigs have UST and they are always at riding pressure straight out of the shed.

Most LBS that sells Raceface, Straitline, Kona, Look, Pedros will be able to get Deemax in as they have the same supplier. YVC in Lilydale, VIC have Deemax in stock (well they have the full Mavic range in stock... except for some really high end carbon road wheels and the Crossmax enduros are sold out... I got the last set!!)

EDIT: forgot to say that if I was going to run tubes I'd run 721s over 729. The tyre profile isn't quite as good but they're much better at resisting dents and cracks.

 

[rednightmare]

EDIT: forgot to say that if I was going to run tubes I'd run 721s over 729. The tyre profile isn't quite as good but they're much better at resisting dents and cracks.

Interesting as I've heard/experienced pretty much the opposite. My 729s have dented but I think they are stronger than 721s (at least for sideloads) as they're double eyeletted which is probably what you want if you're landing whips sideways. In the past I've killed 521s which are the old version of 721s.

And the wider 729s suit wider tyres but if you're running narrower tyres (2.3ish) 721s will probably give you a better profile.

You probably can't go wrong with either, just make sure get the wheel built up well initially and you should be right.

 

[L3ONNOEL]

Oh yeah, the hopes I had were brand spanking new! I ran them on my dirt jumper and was occasionally riding around brakeless and I could still feel it.

Yeah I've seem a few reviews of the Deemax's that are good and bad. Mainly good.. for their price, I'd sort of hope I never had an problems with them!
My budget is really anything. I'll just save up for it if it's actually worth it!

Deemax are basically melted down nokias in the form of a bike wheel. Plus they sound amazing. They are super easy to service too, and you can run non ust tyres without a problem. I use a Hookworm with no sealant at 25psi and even with 180's it never pops off the rim

 

[T-Rex]

You are running 18psi? Really?

That's very low, and will give you more rolling drag than you need, as well as making the tyres squirm in the corners.

It would be worth cross checking your tyre gauge against another high quality gauge, in case it's under reading.

 

[sedifus]

Deemax are basically melted down nokias in the form of a bike wheel. Plus they sound amazing. They are super easy to service too, and you can run non ust tyres without a problem. I use a Hookworm with no sealant at 25psi and even with 180's it never pops off the rim

I remember pinkbike's interview with one of the main men at mavic. He stated that the deemax is designed to ding somewhat to absorb deflection from rocks and keep your line. I wouldn't say they made from Nokias given they are designed to be softer.

 

[driftking]

I remember pinkbike's interview with one of the main men at mavic. He stated that the deemax is designed to ding somewhat to absorb deflection from rocks and keep your line. I wouldn't say they made from Nokias given they are designed to be softer.

Designed to dint wtf.....
Is this in regards to the deemax or just the ultimates?

If they are that soft of a rim I'd be looking at spank spikes evo in that case. Those bad boys are 500grams.
To with something like a dt240 you got a light ass wheel set even with standard spokes.

While we are discussion rims anyone know of a UST rim that is 550grams?