Tell me more about spokes

[Yeti Dan]

I'm about to build a new wheelset but have no knowledge about what to look for in a spoke. They will be laced to a 30mm IW wheel and I'm under 70kg.

I'm thinking of just going for the trusty DT Swiss Competition or Supercomps, but what are you getting for slightly higher end items such as Revolutions, SuperComps, Aerolites etc? Is it just weight saving? A mere 60gm overall is nothing in the grand scheme of things. What else am I missing?

Recommendations would be good. Please, no Sapim CX Rays. I learnt the hard way how much they were to replace. Slapped some temporary DT Comps and notice zero difference..

 

[Ackland]

Intended use?

If not for XC race I'd stick to DT Super Comp....

If for thrashing... DT Comp

 

[DJR]

I'm sure you might get a little more strength or weight saving going above DT Competition, but DT Competition is a very good spoke anyway and is a good mix of price to performance to weight.

This is still pretty relevant

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#spokes

I've absolutely smashed a set of wheels with DT Champion spokes, the plain gauge ones, never had a problem, I like the Competitions though, saves a bit of weight and is stronger than the champs due to the forging and butting process plus they have a little stress relieving flex supposedly

Also this article is useful

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/To-the-Point-DT-Swiss-Talks-Spokes-2013.html

 

[steve24]

If for general riding comps- easy to build.

I used to use revolutions for light wheels but now build with bladed spokes as they are so much easier to build with (no twist- revos can twist a LOT and your wheel will soon be a wobbly mess).

Aerolites same cost or more than CXray....

If in doubt Comps....

 

[Yeti Dan]

This will be more the burlier runs such as Thredbo DH, maybe hucking and casing a few things..:nono: Ideally, it should be flexible enough to climb up hills in.

I'm trying to aim for a wheelset build between 1600-1700gm.

 

[Ackland]

This will be more the burlier runs such as Thredbo DH, maybe hucking and casing a few things..:nono: Ideally, it should be flexible enough to climb up hills in.

I'm trying to aim for a wheelset build between 1600-1700gm.

DT Comp Rear and Supercomp Front

 

[SummitFever]

If you're building for 1600-1700g range with fairly burly rims (eg 400g each) then you may be forced to use lighter spokes like the Revs. If you know what you're doing then spoke wind-up is not an issue. Proper stress relieving through the build process will avoid any loose spokes later. Do not use loctite or nipples with that pre-applied. Built properly, spokes do not come undone unless you've flat spotted the rim.

As you've found, the bladed spokes are a joke - expensive and no stronger (or stiffer) than the equivalent cross section non-bladed spoke. That is, a CX-Ray is mechanically exactly the same as a a Sapim Laser, and a DT Aerolite is the same as a DT Rev.

What rim exactly? If carbon, then the stiffness will be such that I'd recommend the DT Revs for some weight savings, but supercomps or comps will be good too. Get 'em from Starbike for $1 each (with alu nipple), but use brass nipples to avoid the carbon rim/alu corrosion problem.

 

[Yeti Dan]

Wow, this has been super insightful.

I'm looking at the Nextie 35mm/30mm rim. Approximately 420gm per rim or 490gm for DH layer. I'm undecided between the two at this point of time, but my rough estimates are that a 420gm on Hopes will equate to just a tad over 1700gm. It's not the end of the world by any means, but I just wonder how sluggish it would be for an all day ride.

 

[The Duckmeister]

Butted spokes, which are thinner along the shaft than at the ends (such as Comps, Super Comp, Revs, and also some of the blades such as Aerolites) have greater elasticity than plain gauge spokes; the thinner they are the stretchier they are. At first this looks like a negative attribute, but that extra stretchiness helps dissipate stress through the wheel. Plain (and heavier) gauge spokes will tend to suffer accentuated stress at the high load points at the hub attachment and base of the thread from trail impacts. The stretchy (relatively) thinner shaft takes some of the stress away, so ultimately you have a more resilient and smoother riding wheel.

You do need to find the balance though. Super light spokes such as Revolutions work better in aluminium rims which have more inherent flex, so you'll get some distortion between the hub and the ground, but the rest of the wheel will run true through the frame. Super stiff carbon rims with too light spokes will tend to stay true to themselves but flex in relation to the frame, although the typically higher spoke count of MTB wheels vs lightweight road wheels will largely eliminate that problem.

Finally, not all apparently similar spokes are created equal. Different manufacturers use different grades of steel, or supposedly the same grade from different sources, and that will also affect the spokes' behaviour. For that reason I don't like Sapim spokes; while some stretchiness is good, whatever steel they use takes it too far, and they just end up building into shit wheels that are too floppy, vary too much in dynamic tension when in use, and ultimately break spokes far more often than their DT equivalents.

For the type of wheel you're proposing, the trusty DT Competition will be what you want.

 

[slippy]

Just a personal 2c. I have found the highest quality spokes to be Sapim. DT are also good, but not quite at Sapim level.

I've read the blurbs about butted spokes, but in my experience the place a butted spoke breaks is at the butting point. So despite all the hype about them being stronger I've not found that to be the case. Plain gauge spokes break at the J bend. Butted spokes also have a J bend but instead they break somewhere else, i.e. at the even weaker point. So how much weight saving you want to risk will depend on your riding style and budget.

Bladed spokes belong on a road bike, we're not trying to cut wind resistance in the dirt. At least, I'm not.

IMO, YMMV.

 

[The Duckmeister]

I've read the blurbs about butted spokes, but in my experience the place a butted spoke breaks is at the butting point... [snip] ...Plain gauge spokes break at the J bend. Butted spokes also have a J bend but instead they break somewhere else, i.e. at the even weaker point.

Dunno what you're doing to them, but that hasn't been my professional observation. Butted spokes, when they eventually break, will still typically do so at the elbow.

The only time I see spokes break anywhere other than the high stress points at the ends is when they're made from shit quality steel.

 

[MARKL]

I built my first set of wheels about 5 years ago. They have always been the back up set of downhill wheels but have had a fair amount of use over that time - on mine or mates bikes. Used DT Swiss Competition 2.0/1.8 and they have been perfect all that time.

 

[SummitFever]

Spokes will break at the elbow from fatigue if the nature of the wheel build is such that they go slack (lose tension) in use. They'll break at the threads if subject to a single shock that takes the spoke beyond its yield strength. They'll break in the middle if they have a manufacturing defect or have been damaged / weakened by a rock etc.

Thinner spokes have more "stretch" at the same spoke tension than thicker spokes. This means they are less likely to go slack and fatigue the elbow or lose tension at the nipple and have the nipple unwind.

 

[schred]

Do DT still make Alpines? Similar weight to champs from memory, but stronger and visually impressive.

 

[pharmaboy]

So the conclusion is use DT comp spokes.

Easy to replace, appropriate to Mtb use.

Ever look at a committed roadie or committed XC rider? BMI of 18, 6' tall 70kg - that's what those lightweight spokes are for, athletes that only drink beer on their birthday......

 

[Knuckles]

So the conclusion is use DT comp spokes.

Easy to replace, appropriate to Mtb use.

Ever look at a committed roadie or committed XC rider? BMI of 18, 6' tall 70kg - that's what those lightweight spokes are for, athletes that only drink low carb, claytons beer on their birthday......

They are afterall, weenies......

 

[Ackland]

So the conclusion is use DT comp spokes.

Easy to replace, appropriate to Mtb use.

Ever look at a committed roadie or committed XC rider? BMI of 18, 6' tall 70kg - that's what those lightweight spokes are for, athletes that only drink beer on their birthday......

They have the wrong type of commitment.......

 

[Yeti Dan]

That sounds like me... :violin:

 

[noddy]

Just a personal 2c. I have found the highest quality spokes to be Sapim. DT are also good, but not quite at Sapim level.

IMO, YMMV.

I've had the polar opposite encounter with Sapim, always had them either fatigue and snap at the the root of the thread or corrode where they cross each other and break there. Mind these are the equivalent Sapim spokes to DT Swiss champion, maybe they use a different material i the higher end spokes?

When I was at a bike store we chucked a few spokes of various brands in a bath of salt water for a few weeks and the best was DT, all low rung spokes not competition/aero flashness through...