The 29+ movement

[SummitFever]

Yeah. The "plus" thing does have that sort of "solution in search of a problem" feel to it.

I like low tyre pressures as much as the next guy (maybe more), but the fat tyres with super low pressures feel too vague and imprecise on single track. They also catch inner lips and climb out of ruts at the worse times etc. All bad traits for going fast.

 

[g-fish]

I'm on a kona honzo (29er) with wtb trailblazer 27.5x2.8 tires. It's fucking brilliant. Oodles of grip, the tire is a reasonable weight and the slight extra cushion is great for a hardtail. It's set up single speed and I have no issues pushing it up hills.

I'm eyeing off the new rocky mountain sherpa as an xc bike/bike I can go travelling with overseas.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

I happen to ride in an environment that is quite favourable to fat bikes and would be perfect for a 29+ I s'pose. But we all ride it just fine with 29ers, 650B and 26ers...even 700C+ (CX!).

Most of it is niche marketing and if you are up for it then all power to you.

Personally, I'd like to see wider choice in fat-ish XC 29er tyres between 2.2 and 2.5 widths. Most of the 29er tyres I see in this width are heavily built enduro/gravity trail jobbies rather than the lighter XC cases I prefer to ride. Having a wider front tyre than 2.2 on the front might help on the deeper sand and the tight sandy or rooty corners of our tracks while the narrow 2.0 to 2.2 tyre out back keeps ground resistance to a minimum...

 

[Zaf]

I'm on a kona honzo (29er) with wtb trailblazer 27.5x2.8 tires. It's fucking brilliant. Oodles of grip, the tire is a reasonable weight and the slight extra cushion is great for a hardtail. It's set up single speed and I have no issues pushing it up hills.

I'm eyeing off the new rocky mountain sherpa as an xc bike/bike I can go travelling with overseas.

What year is your Honzo frame? I just bought a 2015 that I'm expecting in the next week or so, and I'm running it with 2.35 Ikon and 2.5 Minion DHF's on it.
I saw that the Canfield could do the B+ and have clearance, figured the Honzo could do the same.
Post pictures!

 

[bear the bear]

Word is Trek will not be bringing the 'stache into the country anytime soon as they don't see a market for it....

However this is the company that when they finally announced they were bringing their fatbike in the entire order sold out in under 90mins :noidea:

 

[Hud]

I built up a 29+ wheel for my SIR9 with a rigid fork.
I used a velocity dually rim and a Vee tyre co Fatmax.
Came to the same conclusion as Mitch.
Heavy, slow and hard to slow down.
slow to change direction and it you have to wrestle it around.
At times the grip was so good it was almost dangerous!
I'm going to persevere for a while but regret the project.

 

[g-fish]

What year is your Honzo frame? I just bought a 2015 that I'm expecting in the next week or so, and I'm running it with 2.35 Ikon and 2.5 Minion DHF's on it.
I saw that the Canfield could do the B+ and have clearance, figured the Honzo could do the same.
Post pictures!

2014. The 2015 has a much nicer chainstay yoke and probably take a knard 29x3 on a narrow rim. It's maxed at the wtb 2.8 with a 30mm rim. Definitely couldn't clear any larger on the tire of rim front.

I'll post some pictures at some point...

 

[Zaf]

2014. The 2015 has a much nicer chainstay yoke and probably take a knard 29x3 on a narrow rim. It's maxed at the wtb 2.8 with a 30mm rim. Definitely couldn't clear any larger on the tire of rim front.

I'll post some pictures at some point...

That's clearance on a 2.35 Ikon on Stans Flow EX's at 40psi (brand new tyre, I leave them inflated that way overnight before bringing it down to intended pressures). The dropouts are all the way forward also.

I recon they'd fit a 29+ if you move it back some.

 

[g-fish]

That's clearance on a 2.35 Ikon on Stans Flow EX's at 40psi (brand new tyre, I leave them inflated that way overnight before bringing it down to intended pressures). The dropouts are all the way forward also.

I recon they'd fit a 29+ if you move it back some.

Yeah, the 2014 model with similar tire/rim set up is maxing out for clearance.. You've got heaps of space!

 

[Zaf]

Yeah, the 2014 model with similar tire/rim set up is maxing out for clearance.. You've got heaps of space!

It measures 75mm across the width right before it starts tapering in toward the BB (with a tape measure).
Any ideas what a 3" Chupacabra or Knard measures across its guts?

 

[g-fish]

It measures 75mm across the width right before it starts tapering in toward the BB (with a tape measure).
Any ideas what a 3" Chupacabra or Knard measures across its guts?

That should go, surely... Might have to run a non-plus rim like the flow you already hace. No idea what they measure. Check mtbr, they're certain to have an answer.

 

[g-fish]

Here pictures of my Honzo finally.
Large 2014 Honzo
Rockshock revelation 29 130mm rlc fork
Spank Oozy Trail295 wheels. 29 front, 27.5 rear
Wtb trail boss 29x2.4 front tire. Wtb trailblazer 27.5x2.8 rear tire
Xtr cranks 175mm
Surly drivetrain 34:19 w/ izumi super toughness chain
Xtr brakes
Ks lev ti post with southpaw remote
Wtb high tail titanium saddle
Ks ether 50mm stem and spank Oozy bars

Weight: under 12kg. Not sure on exact.. Don't really care, it does great wheelies and doesn't need maintenance.

As you can see, tire clearance is tight to the sides but still rideable. Set up works well for singlespeeding.. Lots of traction for techy climbs and gives a bit of extra cush. Do have a 29 wheel with a wtb nine line as a quicker set up though.

 

[floody]

Interesting setup!

 

[No Skid Marks]

As you can see, tire clearance is tight to the sides but still rideable. Set up works well for singlespeeding.. Lots of traction for techy climbs and gives a bit of extra cush.

Surely that'll rub the first corner you hit hard. I ride like a fairy and that wouldn't last one ride without rubbing with me. If a stick takes out a spoke you'll be done for.
For the same weight, wouldn't a dually with narrow tyres do everything better? Or a narrower but heavier side wall tyre at the same low pressure giving same contact patch but less undamped tyre suspension? Maybe if it just lives the similar life of a beach cruiser but on dirt. But give it some stick and why would you want "+"? Sorry, I'm struggling to find any purpose for this + but for making novice riding more fun. Maybe I need to ride one, but I can't see any logic to it.

 

[g-fish]

Surely that'll rub the first corner you hit hard. I ride like a fairy and that wouldn't last one ride without rubbing with me. If a stick takes out a spoke you'll be done for.
For the same weight, wouldn't a dually with narrow tyres do everything better? Or a narrower but heavier side wall tyre at the same low pressure giving same contact patch but less undamped tyre suspension? Maybe if it just lives the similar life of a beach cruiser but on dirt. But give it some stick and why would you want "+"? Sorry, I'm struggling to find any purpose for this + but for making novice riding more fun. Maybe I need to ride one, but I can't see any logic to it.

Sounds like you need to ride stiffer wheels!

I ride it pretty hard. It very occasionally buzzes if you get crossed up in the air.. But nothing major.

For sure it's not a standard set up, and not perfect for everything/everyone. But isn't the point of AM hardtails putting the middle finger up to everyone on duallys who are faster but having less fun? (and don't know it).

Having ridden a Krampus with suspension in anger now, there's something definitely to it. Heaps of grip, they plow through smaller rocks/roots like there's nothing there, more efficient than a comparable dually and it's much more fun.

 

[No Skid Marks]

Sounds like you need to ride stiffer wheels! On a hardtail? I reckon the tyre would nearly deflect that amount at sub 15PSI.

I ride it pretty hard. It very occasionally buzzes if you get crossed up in the air.. But nothing major.

For sure it's not a standard set up, and not perfect for everything/everyone. But isn't the point of AM hardtails putting the middle finger up to everyone on duallys who are faster but having less fun? (and don't know it). Yeah AM hardtail would be the first place I'd try it to milk the gains. I can imagine it'd be fun(I'm talking 650b not 29er but). I still cant picture it as faster, more berm slaming, or better at jumping etc.

Having ridden a Krampus with suspension in anger now, there's something definitely to it. Heaps of grip, How much feel though? And you're atlking about climbing grip right? What about cornering grip/feel?they plow through smaller rocks/roots like there's nothing there, more efficient than a comparable dually and it's much more fun.

Hmmmmmmm, Nah. I'd be keen to ride one. and glad you're loving it.

 

[Alex Dlugosch]

The Honzo looks sick Nat, can't wait to see it.

So I ride a Fatbike now, a SS Mukluk with Bluto and its my only bike. Going from basically the same thing but with normal tyres (Kona Unit with 100 mm fork), it's definitely different. I'm overall slower because it plain takes more energy to pedal a certain distance, but the fun feeling when descending makes up for it entirely. I'm addicted to SS hardtails, and honestly the bigger the tyre, the harder you can charge down hill and drift as much as possible through turns. Sliding around corners has always been the most thrilling part of riding for me and bigger tyres make it easier.

The lack of rebound damping is manageable for me, but it's a challenge at really high speeds like at Thredbo for example. It does however make trail jumps incredibly poppy and it's easy as hell to get pretty high and rowdy.

I think the plus bikes are really just for the people who have the biggest tyres possible on their bike but still wish there was more. I went full fat and don't regret it, but I don't give a shit if I'm dead tired from a lap cause it was too much fun.

 

[g-fish]

Hmmmmmmm, Nah. I'd be keen to ride one. and glad you're loving it.

The tire deflects, but not around the frame. Only at the contact patch with the ground.

The Honzo has shorter stays than my old 26" hardtail. No reason you can't have fun on a well designed 29er.

No I'm talking about cornering grip, there's heaps of it. It can be a bit vague in choppy technical terrain because the wide tires tend to bump steer (though I'm only running 29x2.4 on the front at the moment).

The Honzo looks sick Nat, can't wait to see it.

So I ride a Fatbike now, a SS Mukluk with Bluto and its my only bike. Going from basically the same thing but with normal tyres (Kona Unit with 100 mm fork), it's definitely different. I'm overall slower because it plain takes more energy to pedal a certain distance, but the fun feeling when descending makes up for it entirely. I'm addicted to SS hardtails, and honestly the bigger the tyre, the harder you can charge down hill and drift as much as possible through turns. Sliding around corners has always been the most thrilling part of riding for me and bigger tyres make it easier.

The lack of rebound damping is manageable for me, but it's a challenge at really high speeds like at Thredbo for example. It does however make trail jumps incredibly poppy and it's easy as hell to get pretty high and rowdy.

I think the plus bikes are really just for the people who have the biggest tyres possible on their bike but still wish there was more. I went full fat and don't regret it, but I don't give a shit if I'm dead tired from a lap cause it was too much fun.

Yeah it's great fun, we'll have to get out for a pedal soon.

I don't think I could deal with the slow acceleration on the fat bike. The plus size is a good in between as a play thing for a while.

 

[Alex Dlugosch]

Yeah it's great fun, we'll have to get out for a pedal soon.

I don't think I could deal with the slow acceleration on the fat bike. The plus size is a good in between as a play thing for a while.

Yeah, indeed, although it's not the extra mass that I really notice, since you're not accelerating (tangentially) all that much that you really notice it. I think I came up with 3.5 % more inertia of the fatbike and myself compared to the regular 29er. As I said it doesn't really matter what the wheel diameter is, it's just about the mass of the tyre/tube/rim/strip/nipples and 1/3 of the spokes. So if you had a light fatbike setup and a heavy 29+ setup, and the wheels/tyres weighed the same (assuming similar hubs), they would have the same inertia.

But the actual thing you notice is the increased rolling resistance. This is pretty major increase, I'd say a lot more than 5% that you see in inertia. Since rolling resistance is always dissipating energy and not just storing it like inertia does, you really notice. That's where the plus sizes make sense, it's more traction and volume but it's not extreme like real fat tyres. It's a compromise and that's perfectly fine. I mean look, now we have small, medium, and large wheel diameters, just like we have small, medium, and large frames; and now we have small, medium, and large tyres available. Just pick the bike type that fits your body and riding style, it's easy.

 

[Ivan]

Not sure if 27.5+ is worthy of another thread. I'll move this post to another thread if people want.

I see Scott has gone with a 40mm internal width rim, paired with 2.8" tyres for there 27.5+ range. Recommended pressure is 14.5 psi (1 bar). The final diameter ends up being about 10mm less than a 29er with a 2.25" tyre fitted.

Alternatively, Specialized has chosen (for FS bikes) a 30mm internal width rim (45mm on the hardtails), with 3.0 tyres. Recommended pressure is 13 to 16 psi.


The Scott concept makes more sense to me, especially as even specialized are using much fatter rims on their hardtails than they are on stumpjumper.

Scwable are claiming only a 1% increase in rolling resistance for there 2.8" tyre compared to the 29er 2.25".

The big wheels look meaty.
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/scott-launch-275plus-bikes-for-2016.html