Washing out when cornering left

stewyh

Likes Dirt
Anyone watching the crash pics thread will have seen the chunk of tissue Lake Mountain removed from my elbow last weekend. Healing ok But it's highlighted a particular deficiency in my riding... er well one of several but one thing at a time

99 percent of my front wheel washouts are in LEFT turns. I can rarely recall ever losing the front on a right hander, highsided a few times but barely any washouts.

I wonder what might be causing this. I ride left foot forward. Maybe harks back to my skating days where i always struggled with backside tricks more than frontside.

I know the drills, elbows out weight forward, look where you want to go, lean bike not body etc but here I am. Trail bike is kona honzo xl. 29er Fairly slack ht angle, 45mm stem and about 100mm rise from top of ht to top of grips.

Im definitely not blaming the bike geo, mind! Just an idea of where im at. I'm 190cm 100kg.

Any suggestions most welcome! The left side of my body has had enough haha
 

teK--

Eats Squid
If cranks are level then outside crank should be forward to allow good hip rotation. In your case should be right foot forward for left turns.
 

stewyh

Likes Dirt
Are you left or right handed?
Right

If cranks are level then outside crank should be forward to allow good hip rotation. In your case should be right foot forward for left turns.
Makes sense. Outside pedal is down where possible of course but Ill def try this. Gonna feel strange at first I guess but probably good idea to get comfortable riding switch foot anyway. Cheers,
 

fridgie

Likes Dirt
Being left handed I've found its easier to correct a washout going left than it is going right, come to think of it, don't think I've had one going left.... Been bloody close though lol, last one I picked up just in time before I hit a tree.
 

stewyh

Likes Dirt
Being left handed I've found its easier to correct a washout going left than it is going right, come to think of it, don't think I've had one going left.... Been bloody close though lol, last one I picked up just in time before I hit a tree.
Yeah it was doing my head in, figured with left foot forward there would me more weight on the front wheel in left turns. More weight to the inside of the wheel it seems, not where it needs to be.
 

spoozbucket

Likes Dirt
Are you Derek Zoolander?

I'm lazy I always ride right foot forward and fall off roughly the same left and right, I don't understand why you would want to rotate your hips on a bike, I also don't understand leaning the bike and not your body. Isn't it normal to do both?
 
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johnny

I'll tells ya!
Staff member
I'm right handed, ride left foot forward and struggled turning right (flat turns were fucking me up). I watched the Fabian Barrel youtube series and worked hard to follow his guidance: push down with inside arm, allow outside elbow to bend upward, weight on the outside foot with pedal down and heal down, turn the hips and head, dip the bike not the body. I knew all of these things but when I paid close attention I found that I had bad habits on my non-master side. After a lot of practice and learning to trust my side lugs now when I'm in the zone and nailing those flat turns I sometimes have to work to remember which is actually my non-master side...., which immediately triggers the bad habits again, of course.

So for me it was an issue of discipline. Sure, I knew all the rules but the key was making 100% sure that I was actually implementing all of the time.

Also, I think having your weight forward is a mistake. IF your weight is forward a little slip will become a full washout very quickly. On the really fast, flat turns I get my weight down pretty much on to the very back end of the seat. Some times my front wheel goes exactly where I want it to, some times it drifts and sometime is slips. When it does slip it doesn't go right out from underneath me as the weight is only about 25% on the front wheel and that gives me time to dab with the brakes or even kick the ground and right myself. I've not front wheel (or rear wheel) washed in 8-10 months since I paid close attention to my form and each time I went out I slowed up a little until I was getting it right and then increased the speed. Now, I like corners more than I like almost any other part of the ride!
 

stewyh

Likes Dirt
Are you Derek Zoolander?

I'm lazy I always ride right foot forward and fall of roughly the same left and, I don't understand why you would want to rotate your hips on a bike, I also don't understand leaning the bike and not your body. Isn't it normal to do both?
The more you lean your body into a turn the more your weight/inertia tries to push the wheels out from under you. Stay more or less centered while leaning the bike and your weight is pushing downward, forcing the wheels into the ground, not to the outside of the turn. Berms are a bit different of course.

Its something I've yet to properly master which is painfully obvious, literally and metaphorically.
 

spoozbucket

Likes Dirt
Well, there you go, I am more shit at riding than I thought, that sucks!

Seems I'm back to watching how to corner videos, my brain is learning the physiczez and it doesn't like it.

I just assumed Moto GP style was correct but it seems it's not.
 

bikeyoulongtime

Likes Dirt
My bike is very long, close to someplace around 1150/1200mm wheelbase, not much off the Honzo, chainstays are a bit longer (435mm) I'm 187cm/90kg.

So I get sat pretty much centred in the bike, and I notice when I shift back, front wheel issues arise. Centred or slightly forward, all OK until too far forward. So tend to try and have my weight just a touch forward of centre when things are washy-outy. Having ridden an on-one 456 for a pile of years, I tended to ride forward on that, letting the 130mm of fork and slackish angles take up my mistakes.

There was a guy on pinkbike with a nicolai geometricon uber long and slack bike who said that a long bike lets you shift your weight around for different scenarios. Which clicked, a lot (this one: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/nicolai-mojo-geometron-first-ride-2015.html). With the Honzo, you have room to do the same.

So weighting your bike is dynamic, you need to respond to the trail/surface/lunar cycle. This is pretty descriptive: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/zeps-how-to-body-position-descending-cornering-braking-2016.html. I tend to try and keep my weight centred on the bike, and let my front tyre/fork do their job. Too little weight = wash. too much weight = wash/otb. Pretty aligned with dynamic motivation's explanation: https://www.facebook.com/DynamicMotivation/videos/945342895554367/

Anyway - yeah, slightly different from Johnny's experience, but that's allright, everyone rides differently. It's really useful to go to a pump track, try to keep your chin over the stem and upper body still, while your legs and arms do the work of weighting and unweighting your bike in different ways. Hope that huge slab of words is useful!
 
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ozzybmx

taking a shit with my boobs out
I don't understand why you would want to rotate your hips on a bike
Ride along a straight trail, footpath.. anywhere. Rotate your hips to the left or right and try to keep the bike going straight... thats why you need to rotate them, the bike turns where your hips are pointed even if you are trying to go straight.
The way I explain it to people with issues of drifting wide on corners or even tight singletrack is point your bellybutton where you want to go. Makes a massive difference to your trail speed and confidence.
 

spoozbucket

Likes Dirt
Ride along a straight trail, footpath.. anywhere. Rotate your hips to the left or right and try to keep the bike going straight... thats why you need to rotate them, the bike turns where your hips are pointed even if you are trying to go straight.
The way I explain it to people with issues of drifting wide on corners or even tight singletrack is point your bellybutton where you want to go. Makes a massive difference to your trail speed and confidence.

I'll have to take notice of what I do on the trails, I never really ride with XC tyres so to keep with friends on XC bikes I'm pretty much on auto pilot. I have stopped riding with quicker riders so my form has in corners has gone to shit over the last few years.
Time to do some solo riding and working on being less shit I guess.
 

stewyh

Likes Dirt
My bike is very long, close to someplace around 1150/1200mm wheelbase, not much off the Honzo, chainstays are a bit longer (435mm) I'm 187cm/90kg.

So I get sat pretty much centred in the bike, and I notice when I shift back, front wheel issues arise. Centred or slightly forward, all OK until too far forward. So tend to try and have my weight just a touch forward of centre when things are washy-outy. Having ridden an on-one 456 for a pile of years, I tended to ride forward on that, letting the 130mm of fork and slackish angles take up my mistakes.

There was a guy on pinkbike with a nicolai geometricon uber long and slack bike who said that a long bike lets you shift your weight around for different scenarios. Which clicked, a lot (this one: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/nicolai-mojo-geometron-first-ride-2015.html). With the Honzo, you have room to do the same.

So weighting your bike is dynamic, you need to respond to the trail/surface/lunar cycle. This is pretty descriptive: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/zeps-how-to-body-position-descending-cornering-braking-2016.html. I tend to try and keep my weight centred on the bike, and let my front tyre/fork do their job. Too little weight = wash. too much weight = wash/otb. Pretty aligned with dynamic motivation's explanation: https://www.facebook.com/DynamicMotivation/videos/945342895554367/

Anyway - yeah, slightly different from Johnny's experience, but that's allright, everyone rides differently. It's really useful to go to a pump track, try to keep your chin over the stem and upper body still, while your legs and arms do the work of weighting and unweighting your bike in different ways. Hope that huge slab of words is useful!
Yeah cool. That wss some great info. Swing my butt around! Actually heading out to the local pump travk today. Still feeling too beaten up by my stack last weekend for a trail ride. Bit of easy flow will be nice.

I think with that crash: it was late in the ride, fatigued, bit of a sore back which makes me ride fairly upright. Wrong foot forward (as pointed out by teK--). Fast off camber left hander on dusty loose surface. Bit of the old stiff arm going on, too much weight to inside of bike. The trick is to turn that analysis into instinct. Practice practice practice which means a few more stacks probably. Am investing in elbow pads before next ride!
 

MARKL

Eats Squid
As described in another thread I had a coaching session with Kovarik last week. My cornering has improved a lot as a result. One of the main things that occurred to me during and after the session was that a lot of my problems were the result of listening to too many (well meaning) people who didn't know what they were talking about or were applying the wrong solution to the problem and as Johnny has said often it comes down to not being disciplined/inconsistent in what you are doing.

We broke my riding down completely. The first thing we worked on was my position on the bike and getting that lower, I thought I did that ok but no I was crap, I am 6'2" and not flexible. Getting lower starts with dropping your heals and getting a solid position on the bike. This allows you to move forward/backward, up/down, left/right and to twist your hips. It is amazing how much difference something so small can make.

We then did other drills etc which I have been working on. Having taken that back to my regular trails I can feel the difference in my riding. What is really interesting though is when I make a mistake, say run wide, I can feel and understand where it went wrong, what I did wrong or different.

I wish I had done it ages ago. my advice do a coaching session if you can, keep it simple, get the fundamentals right then twist those hips...there may be a couple of steps in between
 

thecat

NSWMTB, Central Tableland MBC
I also don't understand leaning the bike and not your body. Isn't it normal to do both?
You do both but not to the same extent. if you are just leaning over on the bike your center of gravity is to the inside of the corner compare to where your tyres are. Instead of pushing your tyres in to the dirt to get more grip you are pushing them across the top of the dirt = washout.

By leaning the bike under you, lifting your outside elbow a bit and twisting your hips you put your center of gravity above the tyres, your pushing down through the tyres = more grip. Also lets you move your body more, forward for more weight over front= more front grip to hook into corner. backward more weight over back + front wheel lifts up and around as you pedal out of the apex


I just assumed Moto GP style was correct but it seems it's not.
Moto GP have relatively smooth even surface to grip with their nice rounded edge tyres + as said earlier most of the weight is down low in the bike itself. you need then to get way over the inside of the bike to get it to lean over and turn

very different to what happens on rough dirt where the bike is4/5s of frick all of the over all weight
 

fragile

Squid
You do both but not to the same extent. if you are just leaning over on the bike your center of gravity is to the inside of the corner compare to where your tyres are. Instead of pushing your tyres in to the dirt to get more grip you are pushing them across the top of the dirt = washout.
Lets clear up some misconceptions here.

Try this experiment: take something relatively long with a square edge, like a rule, a remote control, your phone, and stand it upright on a table. Now try and push it at the bottom, where it contacts the table, without it falling over. Then, lean it slightly into the direction you're pushing it, and try again. Then lean it some more, and try again.

What should be apparent is that the further away from vertical your chosen thing is, the faster you have to move it to stop it falling flat. Conversely, with it more upright, it is much easier to push the base "underneath", and it falls the other way.

Now, this is a decent enough analogy for what is happening when we negotiate a corner. Any change in direction requires a force in that direction, and in the case of cornering that force is pushing us towards the centre of the corner, by the only place it can- through the tyres.

So what do the results of our demonstration tell us? If we are cornering, we need the centre of gravity inside our wheels. If we lean our body far too much, we fall down inside the turn, and if we lean too little, we high-side and fall over the top of the bike to outside the turn. A corner is no different to riding in a straight line- if we are not balanced (forward/back and side/side), we are coming off.

Note that with the bike mass such a little proportion of the system (bike + rider) mass, it doesn't matter how much the bike leans. It also doesn't matter if the corner is flat/burmed/off-camber, and none of these situations involved a wheel washing out or loosing traction- Just that having the centre of mass to the inside of the tyres while cornering is a fundamental requirement to not falling on ones face.

Tangent:As an aside, it is perhaps counter-intuitive, but one of the best ways to generate the lateral forces at the tyres whilst shifting the weight inside the turn is to 'push' the hips outside the turn. I'm no sports scientist so it's hard to explain the movement, but you'll know it when you feel it... A side effect of this is for the navel to point in the direction we want to go, hence the advice. If someone is having issue turning one way but not another, sorting this movement out may go a long way to getting that fixed.

OK then, why then lean the bike at all? Well, as has been alluded to, (hopefully!) neither our tyres nor our trails are smooth, so we want to lean the tyre to get it onto the knobs which will give the most grip in the direction they are being pushed- either sideways into the corner, or sideways and backwards if we are braking through the corner. Which will generally be the side knobs. Happily, by virtue of committing our bodies into the inside while cornering, the bike kind of follows us and gets itself into this sweet spot without us having to think about it too much. of course, the times it doesn't are less than happy...

Now, if the tyre has more lateral (sideways) put through it than it has grip, it will disappear from underneath us or wash out... what if we were already on the sweet spot for grip? Thankfully, we can get more, we just need more weight on the that tyre. So if the front is washing, move your weight forward, if the rear is drifting, more weight back. Of course, the more we ask of one tyre, the less we can ask of the other. As with every other part of this, it's all about balance.

TL;DR: Weight the wheel, lean in, and let the bike follow.
 
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