What is the ADF for?

[steve jobs' pancreas]

You need a stable firm surface to land fixed wing aircraft.

true, however on the plus side he would be impervious to torpedo attack

 

[Flow-Rider]

Spending tons of money on machinery that sits waiting for an emergency situation is a waste of money, also the ADF has knowledge of remote refueling procedures. No point getting machinery into remote or isolated places when you can't get a fuel tanker in to refuel them. ADF already does drills with all of this, and none of it is a cheap exercise.

 

[johnny]

Spending tonnes of dollars on the ADF is a waste unless it’s for surveillance purposes or for keeping in good with NATO because if we ever need to defend ourselves physically it wont be from Vanuatu or NZ, and we will need lots of help.

In simplistic terms, that's pretty much it (maybe swap NATO for the Quad/AUKUS somewhere in the future). In even more simplistic terms, the ADF's strategic mission is to support the US as the regional power because their interests largely align with ours - particularly so when sat next to China's. Secondly, they need to be able to deter coercive force from being used against us - that means strategic targets in Australia being hit or our access to/within the global commons being blocked. We cannot fulfill that second task on our own given the ability to strike from a distance and the distance we might have to cover to protect access. We need the US' deterrent power to do all of that.

Apparently there's an accessory pack you can get for the C-130 that turns it into a firefighting plane. If we weren't going to buy dedicated aerial water bombers I'll never understand why these weren't purchased, with a few extra C-130s added to the fleet. That would be the one instance where the ADF could have really provided specialist, immediate disaster support. Over summer have 2 planes ready to go in this configuration, if they are needed pilots are still getting their hours and Defence doesn't sacrifice any lift capacity

Resourcing is a zero-sum game. There needs to be a dedicated training stream for specifically trained pilots to account for redundancy and attrition. That removes personnel, budget and capability from the actual role of national defence. IF you need two aircraft, you have to have another one, at least on standby in case one of the frontline aircraft is grounded. That removes another 3 aircraft from the role of national defence. There has to be a dedicated POL supply, spare parts, mechanics, loadies, etc etc. You get the point. Also factor in that the bushfire season is getting longer and longer (there have been fires in QLD over the winter)

The ADF is for national defence and every role they are provided aside from the core mission reduces their ability to achieve it - material, personnel, budget, training time, stress on air frames, hangar space..., the list goes on. We face a future of increased natural disaster and increased conflict. The ADF isn't well enough equipped to do either one of those roles on its own, lumping them with a dedicated domestic HADR role sabotages national defence.

 

[mike14]

Resourcing is a zero-sum game. There needs to be a dedicated training stream for specifically trained pilots to account for redundancy and attrition. That removes personnel, budget and capability from the actual role of national defence. IF you need two aircraft, you have to have another one, at least on standby in case one of the frontline aircraft is grounded. That removes another 3 aircraft from the role of national defence. There has to be a dedicated POL supply, spare parts, mechanics, loadies, etc etc. You get the point. Also factor in that the bushfire season is getting longer and longer (there have been fires in QLD over the winter)

The ADF is for national defence and every role they are provided aside from the core mission reduces their ability to achieve it - material, personnel, budget, training time, stress on air frames, hangar space..., the list goes on. We face a future of increased natural disaster and increased conflict. The ADF isn't well enough equipped to do either one of those roles on its own, lumping them with a dedicated domestic HADR role sabotages national defence.

Yeah, that's why I artfully inserted the "if we weren't going to buy dedicated aerial water bombers" in there. Ideally you have a dedicated capability, as that doesn't seem to be a national priority you move to something else.
To a large extent the logistics to support the extra airframes already exists, and while 2 was just an example, having them ready to go means that some OPS types then get to play with rosters to work out ongoing support vs defence needs, but at least there's an immediate response available. Currently C-130 pilots get to do cool shit like fly staff-cadets from Canberra to QLD training areas in order to maintain hours, I'm sure we could tap into those without fundamentally undermining national defence needs. And if the aliens do invade and it's all hands on deck, the plans go back to defence taskings, RAAF have 2 extra airframes in the fleet, and the country burns anyway
50% solution is better than no solution...

 

[Oddjob]

Spending tonnes of dollars on the ADF is a waste unless it’s for surveillance purposes or for keeping in good with NATO because if we ever need to defend ourselves physically it wont be from Vanuatu or NZ, and we will need lots of help.

Besides it’s too late anyway, Clive Palmer is already here.

Although I'm not a huge fan of AUKUS, I think it and the SDF point in the right direction. Realistically, the greatest defence threat we have is the closure of sea lanes, long range missile/drone attacks, cyber threats, and responding to disasters in the region.

If that's the case we should be re-orientating towards long range surveillance and strike capabilities, missile/drone defence, and beefing up resilience to cyber attacks. We already have the ADF/Australian Signals Directorate framework in ppace to deal with these threats.

I think for the last piece a TDF/conscript model similar to what Finland, Sweden, Israel etc have would be useful to provide basic training to young people in how to work in cohesive groups. I note that not all the conscripts would be given combat training, most of them would be given training in logistics, communications and disaster management.

Rather than the ADF being tapped to provide support in peacetime, the TDF would be there for peacetime disaster management and could be a resource in wartime.

Sent from my M2012K11AG using Tapatalk

 

[mark22]

Yeah, that's why I artfully inserted the "if we weren't going to buy dedicated aerial water bombers" in there. Ideally you have a dedicated capability, as that doesn't seem to be a national priority you move to something else.
To a large extent the logistics to support the extra airframes already exists, and while 2 was just an example, having them ready to go means that some OPS types then get to play with rosters to work out ongoing support vs defence needs, but at least there's an immediate response available. Currently C-130 pilots get to do cool shit like fly staff-cadets from Canberra to QLD training areas in order to maintain hours, I'm sure we could tap into those without fundamentally undermining national defence needs. And if the aliens do invade and it's all hands on deck, the plans go back to defence taskings, RAAF have 2 extra airframes in the fleet, and the country burns anyway
50% solution is better than no solution...

Hmm pretty specialized application as seen by experienced pilots and crew trained in fire bombing that do it for a living spudding in, which has happened not to long ago.
Unless you have these RAAF aircraft and crew on stand by during the fire season I can't see that working it may put the ADF's primary role secondary to being on call to respond to potential civil disasters.

The severity of each fire season is not static so the use of contractors based on needs (or forecast needs) seem prudent. Potential resources link
Firebombing aircraft are not the golden goose, the weather and smoke can ground them and they cannot operate at night.

Aircraft and crew like that big Sikorsky (Elvis) work all over the world, not being dedicated to any country as some of the larger ones would to do too I imagine.
On a side note geez you don't want to be under them when the do a drop, bloody branches falling down all over the shop, luckily they were good at what they did but if you heard that siren above you, hide preferably under the truck.