What makes a strong wheel?

Nautonier

Eats Squid
Interesting this thread hasn't turned into a carbon vs alloy debate. In my experience, running alloy rims (823s and Flows were the best, as well as some $23 jobs I found on Velogear) for DH and aggressive AM riding was what ultimately lead to me learning how to build my own wheels (it was just getting too expensive). Alloy bends and cracks too easily if it is ridden hard tubeless at less than hard-as-a-rock pressures. Carbon doesn't. And on those rare occasions when it does crack, it's super easy to fix.

Obviously build quality, spoke tensions and brass nipples makes a difference, but for me having to run tyres at over 30PSI just to preserve my rims was a total downer. I've been running my cheap-ass chinese carbon rims for over 2 years now and only just re-tensioned a couple of spokes a week ago. I know for a fact that they've held up to hits that would have had me building up yet another set of alloy rims. When I'm riding my bike, the last thing I want to be worrying about is my wheels... It does make me chuckle every time I see people spending way more money on an alloy wheelset than what you could get a bullet-proof carbon set for. If we have the technology to make high end carbon frames, why don't people trust carbon wheels? Same deal with carbon bars, it's bizarre.

IMHO :rant:
 

silentbutdeadly

has some good things to say
It's not about trust it's about coin. I wanted carbon and would trust carbon but decent alloy was half the price...so alloy got the call. Spank Oozy Trail 295...thanks be to Pushies!
 

creaky

XMAS Plumper
on those rare occasions when it does crack, it's super easy to fix.
IMHO :rant:
Not disagreeing with your position that on an equivalent weight rim carbon is stiffer, stinger and more durable but what do you mean by "super easy to fix" ?
 

Mr Crudley

Glock in your sock
It all comes back around that's for sure. I was rocking wide rims years before they were the new thing. Good old Alex DX32s...
I just had a look at the Alex DX32's. Looks like a solid rim, you will have to try hard, ride lots or go big to bust that one :heh:

I have a Dice Duke laced onto this rear wheel which is a lil' bit heavier but has always remained true. Double wall rims I've had have ended up with flat spots or just seem to go out of true much easier - even with brand name hubs and spokes on board. I went with a bit more metal in the rim when I built this wheel and it makes all the difference. A 100 gms more doesn't hurt and won't win races by shaving 100gms anyhow.

I have resisted the 27.5" upgrade bug ... still ..... must ... not ... spend ... heaps ... $$$ on ... carbon ..... bike pr0n ....
Is there counseling for bike upgrade-itis.....
 

moorey

call me Mia
Interesting this thread hasn't turned into a carbon vs alloy debate. In my experience, running alloy rims (823s and Flows were the best, as well as some $23 jobs I found on Velogear) for DH and aggressive AM riding was what ultimately lead to me learning how to build my own wheels (it was just getting too expensive). Alloy bends and cracks too easily if it is ridden hard tubeless at less than hard-as-a-rock pressures. Carbon doesn't. And on those rare occasions when it does crack, it's super easy to fix.

Obviously build quality, spoke tensions and brass nipples makes a difference, but for me having to run tyres at over 30PSI just to preserve my rims was a total downer. I've been running my cheap-ass chinese carbon rims for over 2 years now and only just re-tensioned a couple of spokes a week ago. I know for a fact that they've held up to hits that would have had me building up yet another set of alloy rims. When I'm riding my bike, the last thing I want to be worrying about is my wheels... It does make me chuckle every time I see people spending way more money on an alloy wheelset than what you could get a bullet-proof carbon set for. If we have the technology to make high end carbon frames, why don't people trust carbon wheels? Same deal with carbon bars, it's bizarre.

IMHO :rant:
This is the only bit I have issue with. Watched a mate explode his enve DH rim on a root we all pinged off 1000 times on a Youies shuttle day. I'm not blaming the carbon....but you can't 'know for a fact' any such nonsense :kiss:
 

moorey

call me Mia
I just had a look at the Alex DX32's. Looks like a solid rim, you will have to try hard, ride lots or go big to bust that one :heh:

I have a Dice Duke laced onto this rear wheel which is a lil' bit heavier but has always remained true. Double wall rims I've had have ended up with flat spots or just seem to go out of true much easier - even with brand name hubs and spokes on board. I went with a bit more metal in the rim when I built this wheel and it makes all the difference. A 100 gms more doesn't hurt and won't win races by shaving 100gms anyhow.

I have resisted the 27.5" upgrade bug ... still ..... must ... not ... spend ... heaps ... $$$ on ... carbon ..... bike pr0n ....
Is there counseling for bike upgrade-itis.....
Ironically...that's the ONLY rim I've ever folded :behindsofa:
 

Mr Crudley

Glock in your sock
I've been running my cheap-ass chinese carbon rims for over 2 years now and only just re-tensioned a couple of spokes a week ago. I know for a fact that they've held up to hits that would have had me building up yet another set of alloy rims. When I'm riding my bike, the last thing I want to be worrying about is my wheels...
I'd love to give a set of CF wheels a go. How do you fix them though? What does each wheel weigh in at too?

This thread is overdue for a good ol' fashioned pointless holy war.
There must be something stupid to argue about, keeps the interwebs going :bored:
 

Mr Crudley

Glock in your sock
Ironically...that's the ONLY rim I've ever folded :behindsofa:
Nooooo, must have been something else. How did you bust one of those........

I'm picturing you probably have uber legs like a track racer on 'roids and like to jump semi's lengthwise Evel Knievel stylee.
 

Boom King

downloaded a pic of moorey's bruised arse
I'd love to give a set of CF wheels a go. How do you fix them though? What does each wheel weigh in at too?

This thread is overdue for a good ol' fashioned pointless holy war.
There must be something stupid to argue about, keeps the interwebs going :bored:
I lucked into a stupid cheap pair of 30mm id Zelvy DH rims laced to Hope PRO II EVO with DT Swiss Aerolites. They are a whole 150g lighter than the Hope to Flow Ex that they replaced.

They as stiff as though!
 

moorey

call me Mia
Nooooo, must have been something else. How did you bust one of those........

I'm picturing you probably have uber legs like a track racer on 'roids and like to jump semi's lengthwise Evel Knievel stylee.
Ahhhh...yeah.

They came stock on my 04 RM DH bike. Cased a log jump super hard...replaced it with the indestructible sunn double track. The dx32 is still on the front.
 

Nautonier

Eats Squid
Not disagreeing with your position that on an equivalent weight rim carbon is stiffer, stinger and more durable but what do you mean by "super easy to fix" ?
Good quality epoxy and layers of carbon sheeting can easily fix a crack and make the wheel just as strong if not stronger than it was originally. Can't do that with alloy.
 

Nautonier

Eats Squid
This is the only bit I have issue with. Watched a mate explode his enve DH rim on a root we all pinged off 1000 times on a Youies shuttle day. I'm not blaming the carbon....but you can't 'know for a fact' any such nonsense :kiss:
Ah you carbon nay-sayers... You can't know many things for a fact, but I do know that the carbon rims I have withstand far more abuse than a long line of alloy predecessors. And my forte is casing jumps and finding non-smooth lines...

You've seen carbon rims and bars failing catastrophically, no wonder you don't trust them. Seems some freak of-nature-events happened in both instances.
 

The Duckmeister

Has a juicy midrange
Let's break this down....

RIMS:
Different rim profiles will impart different characteristics. A shallow rim will be more prone to radial flex than a deeper rim. While this can improve compliance, it's also more prone to permanent compression damage. The deeper rim will be harsh and chattery due to its poor radial compliance, but will handle big hits better. A wider rim will have better lateral stiffness than a narrow rim, however if the rim profile is wide and shallow, some of the stiffness will be traded off by the longer spokes and reduced brace angle to a given hub. Finally diameter. All other factors being equal, a smaller wheel is stronger, because there's simply less material for elongation forces to act on.

SPOKES:
Obviously heavier gauge spokes will have more strength. However, stress is concentrated at the ends of the spokes, and if there's not enough built-in flex to dissipate the stress, fatigue and breakage will occur. Butted spokes, which have a thinner shaft than ends, allow more stretch, which relieves stress from the ends. So you lose a small amount of rigidity, but gain a lot in durability. More spokes mean when a given load is applied to the wheel, the load borne by each spoke is lower, therefore greater overall load-bearing capacity. Tension needs to be adequate, appropriate for the characteristics of the rim, both material and profile (carbon needs higher tension than aluminium, shallower needs more than deeper), and even. Brass nipples all the way; there is no valid reason for the existence of aluminium nipples, and they're an especially bad idea in carbon rims.

(B) Lacing:
Radial lacing, being the most direct line from rim to hub, gives optimal vertical and lateral stiffness, but is unstable when rotational load is applied through drive and braking at the hub. Radial is fine with rim braking, because the brake load and the resistance from ground contact are both acting directly on the rim, with no force transferring to the hub. Disc and other hub-based brakes need rotational stability to transfer their force to the rim and ground, so crossed lacing must be used. On a given spoke count, more crosses equates to a greater deviation from the radial alignment for each spoke, therefore more efficient torque transfer and greater rotational stability, which in turn reduces stress on the spokes. However, lower spoke counts, by way of greater angular difference between each spoke, achieve the same thing, so you can get away with fewer crosses on a low-spoke wheel. I consider 28 spokes to be the crossover point between going 2x or 3x; more you go 3x, less you go 2x. If I was building a 28 spoke wheel, I'd go 2x for a rim-braked wheel, but 3x for a disc (or other hub)-braked wheel.

HUBS:
Wider-spaced and/or larger diameter flanges will increase the bracing angle of the spokes from the rim, which increases lateral stiffness. Bearings placed as close to the ends of the axle as possible will minimise axle flex; your opposing pairs of load points on the axle are the dropouts and the bearings. The further apart these opposing load points are, i.e bearings well inboard of the dropouts, the more the axle will flex and eventually break. Case in point the old hubs for screw-on freewheel clusters; the drive-side bearing is so far inboard of the end of the axle that about a third of the axle is unsupported, so has a very high probability of eventually breaking. You don't need four-bearing hubs, you just need two widely-spaced bearings. Cup-&-cone hubs also give better lateral support than cartridge bearings.

MATERIAL:
Can't go without some fuel for the carbon vs aluminium debate. Both have pros & cons. Aluminium is forgiving to an extent in that it (like other metals) has a phase where if it takes a hit it will bend but not break. Carbon doesn't have that phase; it's a lot more elastic than aluminium, so will spring back from a greater impact, but when its elastic limit is reached, it will break. Aluminium rims are softer against larger loads, like cornering and landing jumps, but are more rigid against smaller trail chatter. Carbon is the opposite, it's stiffer against the bigger stresses, but absorbs the little chattery vibrations a lot better. This stiffness is why higher spoke tension is needed with carbon; it tends to highlight the stretchiness in the spokes because the rim isn't absorbing as much of the stress, so you can get more tyre rub as the rim moves over the hub. Carbon has a vastly superior strength-weight ratio, so a carbon rim of equal weight to an aluminium one will be a lot stronger. In fact a subtantially lighter carbon rim will still likely be stronger than a benchmark aluminium rim.....
 

Mr Crudley

Glock in your sock
Ahhhh...yeah.
They came stock on my 04 RM DH bike. Cased a log jump super hard...replaced it with the indestructible sunn double track. The dx32 is still on the front.
I think we can dress this up a bit and stick with the jumping a semi story :dance:
I just hope you walked away without leaving too much claret behind.
 
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