Wheel truing/building equipment
- Thread starter iUDEX_nCr
- Start date
No Skid Marks
Blue Mountain Bikes Brooklyn/Lahar/Kowa/PO1NT Raci
Yeah Nipple drivers are very handy time saver. I just always seem to loose them and forget to remake one.
Ive only ever used or made ones for use with a drill like this.
http://www.bicyclehero.com/au/var-n...QPcJZvvTJb6gaAnKa_89LNE4fZ7AYqhKSsaAm_L8P8HAQ
I'd probably get or make one of them before getting a truing stand.
Ive only ever used or made ones for use with a drill like this.
http://www.bicyclehero.com/au/var-n...QPcJZvvTJb6gaAnKa_89LNE4fZ7AYqhKSsaAm_L8P8HAQ
I'd probably get or make one of them before getting a truing stand.
Ideate
Senior Member
No grinder?
No Skid Marks
Blue Mountain Bikes Brooklyn/Lahar/Kowa/PO1NT Raci
I've always filed down flat heads. You need a real thin one, or one that stays thin for long. I just use a file with screw driver bit in vice. Doesn't take long.
Alo661
Likes Bikes and Dirt
Just get a pick set, they double as a nipple driver or an old spoke.
I don't build enough to warrant buying one of these http://bicyclestarz.com/products/spoke-nipple-sorting-tool?variant=1239527871 but they are so helpful.
I don't build enough to warrant buying one of these http://bicyclestarz.com/products/spoke-nipple-sorting-tool?variant=1239527871 but they are so helpful.
iUDEX_nCr
Likes Dirt
Used my tension meter and just used cable ties on my fork/wheel to get it close.
Found my wheels were fairly under tension ~120kgf as opposed to 180kgf that the Light bicycle carbon is rated to.
After I got my tension to 5% all round, my wheels were pretty good... then just tweak a little to get them true, and then did another run through of tensioning.
I've slightly damaged a couple nipples that wouldn't turn. they hold fine and I've been riding them including at buller... it's going to be such a hassle changing those spokes out with a tubeless wheelset.
Anyway in the meantime I've ordered from CRC, which is now cheaper than BIKEHAND.
Picked up a cheap wheelset with a rear DT 350 hubs. The bearings are shot I think, so ordered 10 from ebay for $15... the X9/FlowEx wheel that I donated to my brother has an issue where the pawl would slip... which is probably still covered under warranty. But I cbf'd. So going to relace the Flow EX's onto the 350's.
Going with DT Competitions, which come with 14mm nipples... so if I need 272.1 & 271.6mm, I should go closest length down right? so 272mm & 270mm?.. or should I just go 272mm for all?
Found my wheels were fairly under tension ~120kgf as opposed to 180kgf that the Light bicycle carbon is rated to.
After I got my tension to 5% all round, my wheels were pretty good... then just tweak a little to get them true, and then did another run through of tensioning.
I've slightly damaged a couple nipples that wouldn't turn. they hold fine and I've been riding them including at buller... it's going to be such a hassle changing those spokes out with a tubeless wheelset.
Anyway in the meantime I've ordered from CRC, which is now cheaper than BIKEHAND.
Picked up a cheap wheelset with a rear DT 350 hubs. The bearings are shot I think, so ordered 10 from ebay for $15... the X9/FlowEx wheel that I donated to my brother has an issue where the pawl would slip... which is probably still covered under warranty. But I cbf'd. So going to relace the Flow EX's onto the 350's.
Going with DT Competitions, which come with 14mm nipples... so if I need 272.1 & 271.6mm, I should go closest length down right? so 272mm & 270mm?.. or should I just go 272mm for all?
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Seriously consider purcashing Roger Mussons book from his website - www.wheelpro.co.uk - about $20
I could have answered majority of the questions thus far from reading this book, sure there are other RB'ers who will vouch for Roger's sensible and pragmatic approach to wheel building and maintenance.
Try this for starters re spome tension
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/support/tensiometers/
Cheers
PS fhe wheels i have built with no tensionmeter have performed flawlessly and required any tuning or tightening, last set are 18mths old!
I could have answered majority of the questions thus far from reading this book, sure there are other RB'ers who will vouch for Roger's sensible and pragmatic approach to wheel building and maintenance.
Try this for starters re spome tension
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/support/tensiometers/
Cheers
PS fhe wheels i have built with no tensionmeter have performed flawlessly and required any tuning or tightening, last set are 18mths old!
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pharmaboy
Eats Squid
Maaaaate... If you really have achieved 180kgf, take em down a notch - light bicycles rims have been getting a crack at the nipple in highly tensioned wheels
I've had a stab a truing and wheel building with limited success in the past, probably more due to a lack of time spent reading up/learning the correct way and tricks/tips and being relatively unwilling to spend $$ on tools. Since then I've started to read books, watch videos and spend a bit more on tools to do things properly. It bugs me to no end going to a bike shop, paying between 20 - 50 for a true or true after spoke replacement which is probably poorly done and contributing to it going out of true/busting spokes in the first place.
Roger Mussons book is pretty decent, not hugely in depth but really a practical, pragmatic approach. It includes building a DIY truing stand (which has the functionality of being able to widen the drop outs for wider rims). People have made them with good results.
I have a cheapo steel stand which doesn't have width adjustment - its really annoying and I suspect it doesn't resonate the same way wood does when the spokes are plucked. The book also covers this and states that wood is considered superior. If I can really be bothered in the future/come across some ideal, free wood, I'll make one in the future. Others have suggested using the bike frame as well - I've done that, it can work very well - really you just need some form of caliper either side of the rim for lateral and something above for vertical. Cable ties can definitely assist. Personally prefer to sit quietly at the stand, comfortably at the right size table to concentrate on getting the spoke turn direction correct, amount of turn correct etc. It's probably a reflection of inexperience and lack of frequency which requires this level of peace, but its interesting that Roger states that he prefers a similar environment to do his. These days I really see tools are a means for combating different issues - speed, ease of use etc rather than a necessity to get the job done. As I prefer to ride my bike than fix it, spending $ on tools to spend less time maintaining and more time riding is a good trade off for me.
Spoke keys are a must, have recently purchased Park tools ones both the 3 sided and 2 sided as I primarily work with 14g and will be standardising the fleet to only use 14g going forward. Definitely better than the multi size spoke tool I've endured with previously, I'm tempted to take it and leave it to work for emergency repairs only/get stolen by someone else.
The book also covers spoke tension - it's a relational concept if you don't have a point of reference. I.e. plucking them only proves they are all equal, it doesn't prove that any are to the correct tension to start with. Roger recommends checking other similar wheels for reference - but I'm not confident or experienced at enough to realise whether those wheels are actually correct either. Finger checking tension for experienced people is probably the fastest method, but for someone who does this infrequently or doesn't do too much of it, its a bit of a waste of time. I have a TM-1 on the way from CRC currently, will be using this going forward to get a reference point/ quickly check tension and move my way around the wheel.
I've also obtained Jobst Brandt's wheel building book which I supposed to be from more of a road bike perspective and in more detail, which will be read in the near future.
Roger Mussons book is pretty decent, not hugely in depth but really a practical, pragmatic approach. It includes building a DIY truing stand (which has the functionality of being able to widen the drop outs for wider rims). People have made them with good results.
I have a cheapo steel stand which doesn't have width adjustment - its really annoying and I suspect it doesn't resonate the same way wood does when the spokes are plucked. The book also covers this and states that wood is considered superior. If I can really be bothered in the future/come across some ideal, free wood, I'll make one in the future. Others have suggested using the bike frame as well - I've done that, it can work very well - really you just need some form of caliper either side of the rim for lateral and something above for vertical. Cable ties can definitely assist. Personally prefer to sit quietly at the stand, comfortably at the right size table to concentrate on getting the spoke turn direction correct, amount of turn correct etc. It's probably a reflection of inexperience and lack of frequency which requires this level of peace, but its interesting that Roger states that he prefers a similar environment to do his. These days I really see tools are a means for combating different issues - speed, ease of use etc rather than a necessity to get the job done. As I prefer to ride my bike than fix it, spending $ on tools to spend less time maintaining and more time riding is a good trade off for me.
Spoke keys are a must, have recently purchased Park tools ones both the 3 sided and 2 sided as I primarily work with 14g and will be standardising the fleet to only use 14g going forward. Definitely better than the multi size spoke tool I've endured with previously, I'm tempted to take it and leave it to work for emergency repairs only/get stolen by someone else.
The book also covers spoke tension - it's a relational concept if you don't have a point of reference. I.e. plucking them only proves they are all equal, it doesn't prove that any are to the correct tension to start with. Roger recommends checking other similar wheels for reference - but I'm not confident or experienced at enough to realise whether those wheels are actually correct either. Finger checking tension for experienced people is probably the fastest method, but for someone who does this infrequently or doesn't do too much of it, its a bit of a waste of time. I have a TM-1 on the way from CRC currently, will be using this going forward to get a reference point/ quickly check tension and move my way around the wheel.
I've also obtained Jobst Brandt's wheel building book which I supposed to be from more of a road bike perspective and in more detail, which will be read in the near future.
SummitFever
Eats Squid
I reckon that's another one of the wheel building the old wives' tales. If you replace the spoke and re-tension the wheel ensuring even tension all round then the potential for more spoke breakages is not higher.
The only time I can see this actually being an issue is where you trash the rim to such an extent that it is no longer possible to get the wheel acceptably true while maintaining even spoke tension.
On a general note:
- it is always better to aim for the most consistent spoke tension (even if this comes at the expense of some run-out eg. wobble). Especially so with disc wheels where you don't have to worry about how wobbly the braking track is;
- higher spoke tension DOES NOT make for a stiffer or more long lasting wheel. Too high spoke tension will prematurely kill the spoke holes in the rim;
- you only need enough spoke tension to stop the spokes from going slack on big hits. The lower the spoke count, the more spoke tension will be required. For 32h wheels, somewhere around 120kgf will be plenty;
- just because a manufacturer claims their rim can handle a high max. spoke tension doesn't mean you should do that high.
Flow-Rider
Burner
Probably depends on the age and condition of the wheel, you should really replace all the spokes when 1 goes because of fatigue. If a wheel has done heaps of kms and it hasn't been maintained correctly, spokes have been loose for a long time. You then pop a spoke , good chance you need to respoke the wheel. You hear of people going to bike shops all the time to get 1 spoke replaced and then they go back 6 weeks later with another and then another. They get charged each time for the one spoke and then another wheel true.
John U
MTB Precision
Yeah but, If the wheel had always been evenly tensioned isn't it possible that the weakness (due to wear and tear) that resulted in the initial spoke breaking would impact all the spoke similarly?
My 1996 bike had one spoke which I got replaced. I was followed by another which I got replaced, and then another. I moved the bike on after that, to a mate. I hold him about the spoke issue. He was only using the bike to toodle around and ride to the shops. He's had no more spokes break. If I'd kept the bike I reckon it would've been in for more spoke breakages.
My 1996 bike had one spoke which I got replaced. I was followed by another which I got replaced, and then another. I moved the bike on after that, to a mate. I hold him about the spoke issue. He was only using the bike to toodle around and ride to the shops. He's had no more spokes break. If I'd kept the bike I reckon it would've been in for more spoke breakages.
ianganderton
Likes Dirt
I've recently had a problem with spokes breaking that has been put down to a bad batch of spokes that have been prematurely affected by corrosion.
ianganderton
Likes Dirt
Spoke corrosion could be a reason for respoking a wheel rather than just a spoke popping
Roger's book also deals with spoke condition. Pretty much says that if it an't broke, don't fix it. Spokes basically get pretty punished in the manufacturing process and it's worse (supposedly) than what they will have gotten on the bike... hm.
It's interesting. The reason I started looking into this is the rear wheel on my commuter has 'spoke cancer'. I have been breaking a spoke roughly every one to two weeks. I deliberately bought silver spokes, the original ones are black. Only black spokes have been breaking.
Where it gets really interesting is that I did not trust myself initially to work on wheels and I took it to bike shops to get it replaced.
They trued the wheel, (ran true when it tested it in the shop). Within two weeks it was untrue, and back to spokes breaking. Rinse and repeat, this process did not improve despite a difference in shop the second time round. Worse, the dill that installed the spoke at Ivanhoe cycles gave it back with the spoke not following the lace pattern (just laid the spoke over the top) and tried to give it back minus the quick release and without testing the brake rotor for trueness (separate task). Totalling incomplete, had to come back a second time round to get it because they hadn't followed their own pickup dockets pick up time. Oh, and there was no discount... yet I was driving back and forwards on a rare annual leave day.
Dills. Decided at that point the $50 for a spoke and true was excessive and to get the hands dirty. There is no good signalling process to definitively identify a competent person to do this. I have to learn how and do it myself. Either way, replacing spokes and rims periodically is still cheaper than dealing with a bike shop. It's definitely proven that a bike wheel can be ridden a decent number of kms, untrue, before spokes will start to break. I think is this is how bike shops are getting away with average work.
Why it's interesting as it shows something still wasn't right when it was coming back. Either:
- somehow the spokes are cactus, I.e. fatigue
- the tension was incorrect (probably too high or low)
- the tension had not been relieved by flexing the spokes prior to returning the wheel and thus was uneven after stress relief
- I'm doing something wrong when I'm riding it.
Given the bike gets ridden 400km per week on smoothish bike trails/roads, its not me being harsh on it. I think its more likely the tension was not relieved or correct and becomes uneven once the stress relieves during flexing during riding the bike. This is straining them to the point where they break under weight. This is why I've ordered a TM-1 - to sense check what I'm doing and give me a tension start point to compare to.
I'm not super knowledgeable in this area, but it's become a new area of interest. But I think wheel building/trueing has a mythical status to most cyclists - probably because they have never had the time to actually research what's involved and people who do not are probably not that forthcoming with how to do it. I'm operating on the belief that it's all 'learnable' and the myth is just baloney.
It's interesting. The reason I started looking into this is the rear wheel on my commuter has 'spoke cancer'. I have been breaking a spoke roughly every one to two weeks. I deliberately bought silver spokes, the original ones are black. Only black spokes have been breaking.
Where it gets really interesting is that I did not trust myself initially to work on wheels and I took it to bike shops to get it replaced.
They trued the wheel, (ran true when it tested it in the shop). Within two weeks it was untrue, and back to spokes breaking. Rinse and repeat, this process did not improve despite a difference in shop the second time round. Worse, the dill that installed the spoke at Ivanhoe cycles gave it back with the spoke not following the lace pattern (just laid the spoke over the top) and tried to give it back minus the quick release and without testing the brake rotor for trueness (separate task). Totalling incomplete, had to come back a second time round to get it because they hadn't followed their own pickup dockets pick up time. Oh, and there was no discount... yet I was driving back and forwards on a rare annual leave day.
Dills. Decided at that point the $50 for a spoke and true was excessive and to get the hands dirty. There is no good signalling process to definitively identify a competent person to do this. I have to learn how and do it myself. Either way, replacing spokes and rims periodically is still cheaper than dealing with a bike shop. It's definitely proven that a bike wheel can be ridden a decent number of kms, untrue, before spokes will start to break. I think is this is how bike shops are getting away with average work.
Why it's interesting as it shows something still wasn't right when it was coming back. Either:
- somehow the spokes are cactus, I.e. fatigue
- the tension was incorrect (probably too high or low)
- the tension had not been relieved by flexing the spokes prior to returning the wheel and thus was uneven after stress relief
- I'm doing something wrong when I'm riding it.
Given the bike gets ridden 400km per week on smoothish bike trails/roads, its not me being harsh on it. I think its more likely the tension was not relieved or correct and becomes uneven once the stress relieves during flexing during riding the bike. This is straining them to the point where they break under weight. This is why I've ordered a TM-1 - to sense check what I'm doing and give me a tension start point to compare to.
I'm not super knowledgeable in this area, but it's become a new area of interest. But I think wheel building/trueing has a mythical status to most cyclists - probably because they have never had the time to actually research what's involved and people who do not are probably not that forthcoming with how to do it. I'm operating on the belief that it's all 'learnable' and the myth is just baloney.