When is it too wet?

[Mad Hatter]

When is it too wet?
I`ve started this thread to get a bit of a debate going on when or if a race should be cancelled or stopped due to inclement weather.
Last weekend the Chase The Sun series (round3) was held at Lysterfield Park in very wet conditions. Other recent races such as the Capital Punishment have also been run in very wet conditions. Some have raised the question as to who is responsible for repairing the carnage to the trails and even if races should be run if too wet?
Is it the race organisers?
Is the event a revenue raiser for a private company or local club and does this matter?
Is it held on public land or private land?
We have been through such a long dry spell that many riders can`t remember (or haven`t experienced) what a true mud slog is like.
So what do you think?
Cheers
MH

 

[jathanas]

Great question but I can't volunteer a definitive answer.

I'd have completely understood if FGP stopped the event after 5 hours. I felt bad about what we were doing to the trail. Do they keep it running because that's what most people want? Are they in fear of claims e.g. I want my money back...

On the other hand, in Europe XC racing is usually a mudbath and I like the challenge of riding in a bog.

Tough one for sure...

I'd like to read what others think.

 

[mmatrix]

hmm

As mountain bikers we are guests on public land. Therefore if our activity is destroying public land we have two options,
One: stop destroying the land by stopping the activity.
Or
TWO: Repairing the damage by Creating sustainable trails with rock armoring , drainage etc.

Would you like to see a cetain amount of your entry fee of the race going towards the trail fund of the area the race is on.
Could we as riders demand this of our clubs and promoters?

Is it then unjust that only the racers are paying for the repair of the trails rather than all the riders?
With out trails we don't have a sport.
As riders do we value the access we have been granted and do we treat the trails with respect?
"take only memories leave only tyre prints? "

 

[spudatm]

Its a hard call especially with the calender being so packed if you get unlucky with the weather its hard to find another weekend to run the event, and most companies can not afford to simply cancel the event. Saying that though if capital punnishment had have been cancelled i would have been a happy man. That event cost me a truckload.
Entry 130
Petrol there and back 100
accomadation 130
race jersey 100
New brake pads 60
New rear hub 200
new suspension bushings 60
all for a dnf

 

[ando_assi]

i can tell you that at the volunteer days it is mostly non racers that attend, there are a few exceptions but i walked around CTS2 talking to every one about the trails and volunteering with LDTR. It seemed the more sponsored you are the more you are uninterested in trail welfare... I was just handing out a flier and wasn't asking for any commitments...

I think that Lysterfield is a "special case" the trails have been neglected for many years through a lack of a MTB community even though it gets the most riders and has access to the biggest population (the actual numbers are staggering), it has come to head and i think you will find that there should be some action on it soon. It would be great if you could help us (LDTR) by taking some interest in what will eventually be the jewel in the Victorian MTB scene... one day!

Keep the talk about Lysterfield going because it is this sort of frustrating threads that caused me to start a club, Jump on lysterfieldmtb.com forums and tell us what you want. If you are interested in giving back to a place that you enjoy drop me a PM and i can send you a information pack on LDTR, if that doesn't take your fancy let me know what would!!

Andrew Leslie
www.lysterfieldmtb.com

 

[trav]

Any organization that causes trail damage should be liable for rectafaction .The rectafaction works should then be carried out buy suitably skilled people at the organization expence.

Until they are held responsable things will never change out there,thats why it's in the state it is.If you think that trails repaire them self ,your kidding your self.The only thing that will fix those trails know is a shit load of money,about $100 a rider would get the ball rolling.

 

[jbro24]

Any organization that causes trail damage should be liable for rectafaction .The rectafaction works should then be carried out buy suitably skilled people at the organization expence.

Until they are held responsable things will never change out there,thats why it's in the state it is.If you think that trails repaire them self ,your kidding your self.The only thing that will fix those trails know is a shit load of money,about $100 a rider would get the ball rolling.

I don't think that organisations can be held soley responsible for the damage to tracks, organisations don't damage tracks riders do! Organisations like FGP need to be thanked for all the hardwork and effort they put in, if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have races like CTS.

As riders do we need a code of conduct that says in certain conditions we don't ride, or is there an addition fee to be paid by all rider that choose to ride in wet conditions to go to repairing the damage they cause?????

 

[trav]

I don't think that organisations can be held soley responsible for the damage to tracks, organisations don't damage tracks riders do! Organisations like FGP need to be thanked for all the hardwork and effort they put in, if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have races like CTS.

As riders do we need a code of conduct that says in certain conditions we don't ride, or is there an addition fee to be paid by all rider that choose to ride in wet conditions to go to repairing the damage they cause?????

Yes they are ,it would be a clause of their event permit and should be enforced buy land managers.

 

[hungrytiger]

There are many things wrong with Lysterfield as it currently stands. If you look at the model at other locations then you see that those who host the races are the ones that build and maintain the trails on which they take place. If they make the call to run a race in terrible conditions then they will have to pay the price in terms of hours graft repairing everything; and chances are they will be far more likely to call it off. This is not the way at Lysterfield.

I think asking whether the race should be called off after 5 hours is a rather moot point, most of the damage had probably already been done. The call, if it were made, should have been a couple of days before - the weather forecasts were pretty unequivocal. Everyone knows that would be highly unlikely because FGP make a shed load of money out of these events - thats as you would expect, they are a business. Its a conflict of interest. I would like to see Lysterfield run for the benefit of everyone, racers and enthusiasts alike - it is a public resource

 

[Rookie]

I can confirm many of the Capital Punishment tracks are better than they were before the event now

 

[Josh Seksy]

I understand that lysterfield is a special case in terms of the trails, I've only just learnt about the LDTR club whom volenteer for trail works, but it is some bizzare occurance that FGP isn't putting a huge deal of money back into the trails.
By my calculations,
$60~ per rider x 450 = $27,000
Plus whatever sponsorship rights get sold at.
Obviously minusing outlay costs it'd still leave a fair amount of cash in the bank?
I dont mean to blaim, but it seems that somebody is profiting a pretty penny at the expense of the trails.

I mean no disrespect to FGP or anyone else this may offend, don't get me wrong, I love the CTS series and have raced them for the past 4 years, come to speak of it, it was my first race, but the fact of the matter really is, why are the trails being used and abused?

A perfect example of sustainable trails, I believe, is the You Yangs.
Granted, the YY would see less then half the amount of trafic that lysterfield does, but a close look at the trail management/repair scheme indicates that the trails would be well equiped to handle more.
Trav (although I've never met you) seems to be doing a good job down there at keeping everything in pristine condition, and the campaign where each racer pays a small 'fee' (what is it, $1.80?) that goes into a trail fund is simply a FANTASTIC idea.
Why can't something similar be put into play over here?

My 2cents

 

[Olly76]

The comment I will make on this is that it will take many man hours and or lots of $$$ to fix the mess that was created over the past two months.

I am not against racing, exactly the opposite. It brings valuable funds to the area that the event was held in which then can be used to create a better experience for the general riding community. Most racing clubs are non for profit and put the money back into the trails and or clubs.

Lyst Park has been poorly designed and maintained which cannot be blamed on CTS/ FGP but running the race in wet but NORMAL winter conditions is not the answer. These winter races must be moved to a more suitable time until an all weather race / riding track can be built.

Lets hope that some common sense can prevail at Lysterfield other wise any trail building done will come to nothing.

 

[hungrytiger]

Lets hope that some common sense can prevail at Lysterfield other wise any trail building done will come to nothing.

Do we have any direct links into PV to make a representation? We won't get a response out of any of the organisers on a public forum (and I dont want an argument anyway, we are all just punters who enjoy messing about on bikes at the end of the day).

 

[serowe]

CTS competitors aren't the only people using these trails. How many posts have been made on this forum in the past about the damage done by the 'non-competitive' users during the week.

Trails that have been clearly marked and defined are 'modified' and damaged by those using the trails during the week.

Yes - the trails used on Sunday were 'heavily' used - they will recover. But you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be riders out ther this week who don't care where they ride, what 'changes' they make to the trails because they consider them 'bad' or 'dangerous' or simply try to create their own trails.

(Not a criticism) but a working bee on Sat 21st is NOT a good date to pick - election day plus many of the riders some have tried to 'shame' here will be either preparing or on their way to Castlemaine!

The bottom line, though - no meaningful work will be able to be done until some drying out of the whole venue has taken place - it IS winter still, it is highly likley that the type of weather we have seen will happen again in the coming month or two!

 

[Mark S]

What is "rectafaction"? Is this a specialist MTB term?

 

[Shane-O]

CTS got worse and worse... last lap I spent as much time tramping through mud half way up my calves as I did riding through mud half way up my wheels...

Put a donations bucket out at the next round to help fund trail repairs, I'll donate a yellow back no problemo - FGP or the Lysty MTB club, as long as it goes towards trail maintenance.

S.

 

[martinpb]

some ideas

mostly ideas to think over rather than fully articulated working suggestions

1. one day/weekend a month is designated as trail building time for a whole region (i.e. inner victoria - everywhere within 2 1/2 hours drive of the cbd) - no competing races/rides/meetings/events...

2. MTBA refuse to support/allow/condone/insure any event run on a track that does not meet with IMBA sustainability guidelines

3. mandatory (i.e. MTBA/IMBA/local gov organise it) or optional (you tick a box and pay an extra $5) surcharge for racers - procedes going to the local trail group (LDTR/GCTA/YYMTBC...)

4. electronic drop box for trail subs - i.e. the local trail group has a bank account that you can pay $2 into each time you ride the local trails. people who pay get their name up on rotorburn as a thank you (give yourself 5 free rides for a 1/2 day trail building)

5. no prize money to be paid to riders who have not attended at least two trail buildling days in the last year (other MTB community work would count - legal help/grant writing etc) - no idea how you'd police this...

6. build and race weekends - turn up friday, build saturday, race (on other trails) sunday

7. full on attack weeks - plan a trail, get a load of people to take a week's leave and build flat out for the week

8. LOTS of signs explaining that riding after bad weather increases errosion exponentially even on the best built trails (Lake district and Utah rock fests excepted ;-)

9. contract between Parks and organiser states that trails must be returned in reasonable state (i.e. it's acceptable that tracks deteriorate over time and a race is particularly hard on a track, but it's not acceptable for a track to be a quagmire (sp??) after a race. if the tracks are broken and not repaired, then no more race for that club/promoter at that location

10. each mtb park should have a dedicated all weather race track. it may be shorter than desireable and very rocky/fire-roady, but it would be able to hold up to a shortened race for 500 people without being totally destroyed by the event. (this one is so that races can be run no matter what happens - they just turn into "ok" rather than "great" races)

11. MTBA led insurance scheme for events that need to be cancelled due to bad weather - the promoter keeps most of the cash, the punters get their money back (paid for by a premium on the entry fee - and coupled with the above suggestion about IMBA and sustainable tracks) (this would mean that you could look at a race and if it's not got the money back gurantee, you'd have to start asking yourself if the race is being run on sustainable trails)

12. take responsibility for your own damage - i've failed to pull out of a race that was turning into a bogfest. that was the wrong decision, but it means i do understand the desire to keep going once you've started on a race (and it cost a mint for new pads, chain, cluster...)

now you can start shooting those ideas down - but before you say they are all unworkable, a few of those are actual working systems from around the world (i don't get ideas, i just steal them ;-)

Martin

 

[serowe]

1. one day/weekend a month is designated as trail building time for a whole region (i.e. inner victoria - everywhere within 2 1/2 hours drive of the cbd) - no competing races/rides/meetings/events...

With the number of events in Victoria alone, what events would you suggest miss out?

2. MTBA refuse to support/allow/condone/insure any event run on a track that does not meet with IMBA sustainability guidelines

Given that MTBA effectively have no control over any events other than National rounds and Championships, how would you propose this happen? MTBA realistically have no jurisdiction over events anyway other than providing insurance and, AFAIAA, there is nothing to prevent any organiser (club or private) from running an event without insurance.

3. mandatory (i.e. MTBA/IMBA/local gov organise it) or optional (you tick a box and pay an extra $5) surcharge for racers - procedes going to the local trail group (LDTR/GCTA/YYMTBC...)

Again - MTBA/IMBA have no jurisdiction anyway, so...local govt won;t do it (costs involved in policing it) so they will either allow it or completely stop it.

5. no prize money to be paid to riders who have not attended at least two trail buildling days in the last year (other MTB community work would count - legal help/grant writing etc) - no idea how you'd police this...

Considering only the Pro riders get 'prize money' and the majority of placed riders get 'product' it wouldn't really reap much.

6. build and race weekends - turn up friday, build saturday, race (on other trails) sunday
7. full on attack weeks - plan a trail, get a load of people to take a week's leave and build flat out for the week

And, if after all the organising, the designated days turn out to be like last week in Melbourne?

9. contract between Parks and organiser states that trails must be returned in reasonable state (i.e. it's acceptable that tracks deteriorate over time and a race is particularly hard on a track, but it's not acceptable for a track to be a quagmire (sp??) after a race. if the tracks are broken and not repaired, then no more race for that club/promoter at that location

Interesting option - all clubs would be out of business within 12 months. Geelong - well anyone that attended the National Series in Dec 08 would know what I mean (and that is NOT pointing the finger at them - they got hit with monsoonal weather). How long would you propose the club/organiser be allowed to 'return the trail' to a usable state? You could not say the day after an event.

10. each mtb park should have a dedicated all weather race track. it may be shorter than desireable and very rocky/fire-roady, but it would be able to hold up to a shortened race for 500 people without being totally destroyed by the event. (this one is so that races can be run no matter what happens - they just turn into "ok" rather than "great" races)

These are generally called main roads or highways.

11. MTBA led insurance scheme for events that need to be cancelled due to bad weather - the promoter keeps most of the cash, the punters get their money back (paid for by a premium on the entry fee - and coupled with the above suggestion about IMBA and sustainable tracks) (this would mean that you could look at a race and if it's not got the money back gurantee, you'd have to start asking yourself if the race is being run on sustainable trails)

Cost and more cost.

now you can start shooting those ideas down - but before you say they are all unworkable, a few of those are actual working systems from around the world (i don't get ideas, i just steal them ;-)

Maybe some might be working overseas, but the first problem here is MTBA. Given that already you can have clubs who are operating both under and outside the MTBA umbrella, and private promoters who are also split into MTBA and non-MTBA sanctioned promoters, you already have a problem. State Governments don't distinguish between them - AFAIK there isn't even any requirement to be affiliated with MTBA or CA in order to run a MTB event (in Victoria at least).

This isn't to say that the various promoters need to be diligent in the way they run their events, but even they can't control the weather and, after all, as someone else pointed out, MTB'ing is an all weather sport.

It comes down to this then - if you don't want trail damage (at any time) - don't hold ANY events! <pulls tongue out of cheek....> Even dry weather running causes damage - where do you draw the line?

 

[akashra]

I've floated your option#3 around before - I'd like to see it implemented, but it's generally frowned apon. My idea was, though, that it's not just for trail maintenance, it's also for volunteers running events.
The road model works similar to this with some clubs: Either you go on the roster to volunteer, or you pay an extra $10 at each event you do.


I also think MTBA should be looking into the professional insurance you've indicated in item#11.


Another idea I was pondering while riding on Sunday (don't ask, I do this kind of stuff while I'm racing):
Maybe Parks implement a policy where they look at rainfall in the N days (7?) leading up to any event. For every mm of rain, a fee of Y per rider is payable. What those figures are would need discussion, but it could be 10c per mm, so the cost of running 400 riders with 35mm rain in the week before would come out at around $1400. The organizer would have to make the call on whether that remains profitable, or pull the event. I believe this could provide enough of a disincentive to keep things going ahead in adverse conditions.
It's actually events like the Otway Odyssey that have me more interested in this regard.


There's another factor that has to be considered: It's not just the users or organizers responsibility to maintain the trails - it's the land owners responsibility to provide facilities that are able to sustain the use they're providing them for. Shouldn't some responsibility be borne by those who constructed the trails unable to handle the conditions and use in the first place? I think that needs considering. That one trail can be built in an identical area and stand up just fine, but another turns to trash - that says it's the build, not the riders, causing the damage.
Remember for example the section (in the video I posted) of Middle trail that became a quagmire? You'll notice that the original trail we built actually went *around* that section - but riders instead decided "no, we'll just straightline this", and that's what became the accepted line.
But the rest of that section of middle trail held up just fine - because it was built properly to begin with.

 

[drkelvin]

Some clubs give you club championship points for the season if you help with trail building / maintenance