L'officiel Le Tour 2013 Thread!

[Pastavore]

I don't completely agree but I tend toward your view. He only admitted once exposure was assured, that makes it a very hollow admission.

And read Bannan's weak response to his admission. Basically saying that doping was rife back then so "let's not be harsh on nice Stuart". A very WEAK response from Orica Greenedge team management.

Bannon and GreenEdge are a disgrace as well. After the Armstrong/Matt White saga, they commissioned an internal review on antidpoing standards and processes, interviewed all the riders. So if they did that properly, O'Grady lied in their faces, and now they are openly forgiving and supporting?

Oh, and GE did either fastest or second fastest TTT of all TDF's in the '13 tour.

 

[Pastavore]

Y'know, this is one of the reasons I have changed from hardcore roadie to MTBer. I could EPO as much as I wanted, and still get my ass kicked on an MTB 'cause my skills suck. No skill doping around that I am aware of.

 

[DeBloot]

Actually there has been a study that PROVES (to some degree) the "win at all costs" attitude is very true for athletes.

Athletes were asked the following:

• They could be given an undetectable drug that would GUARANTEE a Gold medal.
• The side-effect is that they will be killed by the drug in five years time.
• Would they then take the drug, being guaranteed a Gold medal.
• approximately 50% of elite athletes involved would take the drug.
• Yes - about 50% of athletes would kill themselves over a five year period for a Gold medal.

Sorry I have no reference where or who did the study, but it is well known.

WIN AT ALL COSTS is pretty true for athletes.

Jesus - no one could ever accuse me of having an optimistic view of people, but I'm surprised
At least my pessimistic view of mankind has been vindicated lol

I guess once money and fame become the overriding goal, the goalposts move

 

[geoff_tewierik]

Oh, and GE did either fastest or second fastest TTT of all TDF's in the '13 tour.

Irrelevant due to differences in TTT courses over the years.

Even if they had the fast average speed, was it because in the past courses were hillier and this time around they had a flat course or because they're on the gear? I'd go for flat course before looking for extra juice.

 

[0psi]

I guess once money and fame become the overriding goal, the goalposts move

I don't think money or fame have anything to do with it. Winning is all that matters and most of these guys will do anything to beat everyone else.

Having competed at an elite level (completely clean I'll add) I can sympathise with these guys. It's rough knowing no matter how hard you train and what you do someone else is still going to beat you.

 

[Sic]

So O'Grady "I just had to drive over the border and buy it at any pharmacy."

And he just knew that somehow? Then he knew what to do with the EPO somehow, and knew what it would do, and how to store and hide it and knew it wouldn't show up in tests, and that it would enhance his performance all without the help of his team or any information from fellow riders or team doctors?

Bullshit.

This is what, for me at least, actually makes his admission worse. Not only is it a forced admission of guilt brought on by an inquiry, he and a bunch of other dudes, still refuse to admit what is bloody obvious to everyone who watches cycling. Namely that everyone from that era were either actively involved in doping or knew about how wide spread it was. O'Grady saying that he did it all on his own is the sort of head in the sand, we're all clean now, crap that these guys continue to shovel down our throats in spite of all the evidence pointing towards its being a straight up lie.

Is O'Grady still a great rider? Sure, but hes not helping anyone 'move on' by not admitting just how compliant everyone of that era was to the wide spread doping. 

 

[Brooksy007]

...I can sympathise with these guys. It's rough knowing no matter how hard you train and what you do someone else is still going to beat you.

Too true, but this can be said for pretty much anything in life - do we start cheating at everything? There's always someone smarter in school / uni, theres always somoneone with more money, better looking... And there are also the lucky bastards who get everything but deserve nothing...

I dont know where the saying comes from "There's no short-cuts in life", but nothing could be further from the truth - it is just that people dont always see all of the consequences. Or perhaps they see the short term gain as being more important that the long term loss...

 

[0psi]

but this can be said for pretty much anything in life - do we start cheating at everything? There's always someone smarter in school / uni, theres always somoneone with more money, better looking

So what you're telling me is that all the smarter/richer/better looking people have got where they are by cheating and no matter what I do in life I'll never be that good unless I cheat?

 

[pharmaboy]

This is what, for me at least, actually makes his admission worse. Not only is it a forced admission of guilt brought on by an inquiry, he and a bunch of other dudes, still refuse to admit what is bloody obvious to everyone who watches cycling. Namely that everyone from that era were either actively involved in doping or knew about how wide spread it was. O'Grady saying that he did it all on his own is the sort of head in the sand, we're all clean now, crap that these guys continue to shovel down our throats in spite of all the evidence pointing towards its being a straight up lie.
;

Well, I for one will disagree. Old fashioned I know, but no one likes a dobber. Scumbags are the ones who admit their own guilt then try and draw as many people down with them as possible, it's self protection , pure and simple "oh but everyone was doing it, they were all forcing me and advising me" - its a copout, and at least o Grady is standing on his own feet and saying yep, I did, I was caught, but I'm not implicating anyone else in all this.

All the indignation about cheating, simply advertises people's naivety - Jesus, it's rife- and people like dick pound are just too dumb to realise.

Time to legalise it IMO

 

[pharmaboy]

I agree, but maybe not with the win at all costs
Would they mame a competitor
Would they sabotage or commit a crime in order to

oo

Tonya Harding.

Mostly it requires some minor mental gymnastics though - they do so I should, works well. Using my own blood isn't a drug is it? Using natural hormones alrready in my body isn't cheating is it? I can inject vitamins, why not testosterone? Etc etc

 

[0psi]

I see where you're coming from but I think the code of silence needs to be broken, it's the only way we're going to move forward. So long as there is silence there will be doping.

If you look at it from the athletes perspective, especially of that era, there are three options. Dope and maybe win. Stay clean and definitely lose. Call out the dopers. Seeing as it is somewhat taboo to talk about doping there are only really the first two options.

 

[Dene Dweller]

I see where you're coming from but I think the code of silence needs to be broken, it's the only way we're going to move forward. So long as there is silence there will be doping.

If you look at it from the athletes perspective, especially of that era, there are three options. Dope and maybe win. Stay clean and definitely lose. Call out the dopers. Seeing as it is somewhat taboo to talk about doping there are only really the first two options.

Agreed and Christophe Bassons is an unfortunate example of option 3.

 

[0psi]

Mostly it requires some minor mental gymnastics though - they do so I should, works well. Using my own blood isn't a drug is it? Using natural hormones alrready in my body isn't cheating is it? I can inject vitamins, why not testosterone? Etc etc

Agreed. There's also the matter of what exactly do you class as performance enhancing? A big part of the whole anti-doping movement is so that we have a level playing field but there are plenty of legal over the counter supplements that will boost performance that are readily available to most athletes but are completely out of reach of most athletes coming from third world countries. Do athletes in developed countries have an advantage over those in third world countries? I know we need to draw a line somewhere but all in or all out I think.

 

[chrisp2087]

Time to legalise it IMO

I am kind of with you on that note for performance enhancing and some recreational (another argument there) but why not? In the F1 teams are issued a certain amount of engines, you blow them you're done (or fined).........give the teams a certain level of enhancement agents and then test for the expected level in the blood..........is it foolproof no, but maybe there's a better way.

 

[0psi]

Agreed and Christophe Bassons is an unfortunate example of option 3.

Yup. People like this should be celebrated not ostracised. We need to stop looking at outside agencies to clean up our sport when we have the ability to do it ourselves.

 

[Pastavore]

Well, I for one will disagree. Old fashioned I know, but no one likes a dobber. Scumbags are the ones who admit their own guilt then try and draw as many people down with them as possible, it's self protection , pure and simple "oh but everyone was doing it, they were all forcing me and advising me" - its a copout, and at least o Grady is standing on his own feet and saying yep, I did, I was caught, but I'm not implicating anyone else in all this.

All the indignation about cheating, simply advertises people's naivety - Jesus, it's rife- and people like dick pound are just too dumb to realise.

Time to legalise it IMO

I like a dobber, though I prefer the word "whistleblower". I think Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton should be recognised and applauded for reaching the point of total honesty. O'Grady is standing on his feet, telling 1/100th of the truth, ad not spitting in the soup so that has a chance of on ongoing career in cycling, THAT is self protection.

I think most of us are not naive: we know what is going on, but that doesn't mean we are not angry about it.

As for legalising, cannot support that at all. Any legalisation would have to have dose controls of some kind to protect the athletes health. That would then result in athletes trying to find cheeky ways of taking extra doses, or a new untested drug, or some other way of gaining an advantage which will result in even greater risk to health.

You are right, athletes will always seek an advantage, so better to set the starting bar as low as possible.

 

[Art Vanderlay]

Teams are starting to be announced so it must be time to get your tips in. SBS has the Teams announced so far

Maillot jaune (Yellow Jersey)

Maillot Vert (Green Jersey)

Maillot à pois rouges (Polkadot Jersey)

Maillot blanc (White Jersey)

Teams Classification (Yellow dossards)

Lantern rogue (Last rider to finish)

Honte congé - First rider to be expelled for drugs
​

To fill that last one - Stuart EPO'Grady
Is that all the categories filled now

 

[Cave Dweller]

I doubt many in this thread would want to be defined by things they did when they were 25

 

[DeBloot]

I doubt many in this thread would want to be defined by things they did when they were 25

Perhaps not, but responsibility needs to be taken if some previous misdeeds come to bite you on the arse later in life
We all make our choices, and some of them are really bad and certainly can turn out in ways we wouldn't have expected
But tough shit - if you've got skeletons in your closet, you need to be prepared for someone opening that closet one day

I think EPO'Grady (lol) will get off lightly - he's had a great career and this will blow over and he'll continue to prosper
He's one cheat amongst many, and people have short memories - he gets no sympathy from me though

 

[Cave Dweller]

Perhaps not, but responsibility needs to be taken if some previous misdeeds come to bite you on the arse later in life

Ahhh..... isn't that what he did? The test result was suspect/inconclusive, he could have denied it.