L'officiel Le Tour 2013 Thread!

[pharmaboy]

I like it, the charge could be accessory to doping. The only time these guys admit their guilty is when they're backed into a corner, how many have come out and said yes I doped without the pending release of a report or their soon to be exposed involvement. The whole problem with these guys is the Omerta, it's a cultural change that's required but I don't see it happening any time soon.

I still think it should be a lifetime ban for first offence (riders, officials, managers etc). Sounds harsh but once the first couple of fools go the others might stop and think about what they are risking.

Straight away, you should start thinking about examples such as Alex Watson , banned for having too much caffeine which is of course long been legal and widely used. He also managed to be banned as a drug cheat for drinking too much coffee..

Problem is the systems and guilt are so far from perfect it's not funny. What's banned one year, might not be banned the next. Hell, you can be banned for using something which is not approved, or using too much of something thatis approved . It's far from black and white - and that is the crux of the problem.

 

[Dene Dweller]

Straight away, you should start thinking about examples such as Alex Watson , banned for having too much caffeine which is of course long been legal and widely used. He also managed to be banned as a drug cheat for drinking too much coffee..

Problem is the systems and guilt are so far from perfect it's not funny. What's banned one year, might not be banned the next. Hell, you can be banned for using something which is not approved, or using too much of something thatis approved . It's far from black and white - and that is the crux of the problem.

I understand the point your making but I stand by a life ban. The doping has been/is so deeply entrenched in the sport for so long a draconian stance is required. Pro road cycling is a complete joke, the continued turmoil has decimated it's reputation and is a absolute farce. I'm glad the DH is on sunday night so I can watch some skill drugs can't provide.

 

[wombat]

I can see the motivation behind a hard line stance, but I can't see it really working. I mean a lot of the time we're not looking at individuals acting on their own (except of course for Mr. O'Grady...), it's coordinated and managed within teams and organisations. On one hand that seems like an argument for harsh penalties, but I can see a lot of younger and less established riders copping permanent bans after being pressured into the practice.

Sure, we can argue "just say no", but in a sport where so many seem to be slipping through the net, it's not like taking the moral high ground is going to be practical, especially for a someone who's still just trying to make their way (and a living).

If testing was actually up to the point where dopers were consistently being caught in the act, rather than 10-15 years later, then maybe a hardline stance would work. In the meantime though I can see it ending the careers of lesser offenders, whilst others get away with it for years.

 

[Pastavore]

Straight away, you should start thinking about examples such as Alex Watson , banned for having too much caffeine which is of course long been legal and widely used. He also managed to be banned as a drug cheat for drinking too much coffee..

Problem is the systems and guilt are so far from perfect it's not funny. What's banned one year, might not be banned the next. Hell, you can be banned for using something which is not approved, or using too much of something thatis approved . It's far from black and white - and that is the crux of the problem.

I don't see that as a problem at all. There is a list, easily available to all professional athletes. If next year it says caffeine is illegal, stop drinking coffee. IF you don't want to dance on the edge of the grey area and risk the consequences (looking at you Essendon), just stick to taking no supplements and eat a healthy diet.

 

[chrisp2087]

I don't see that as a problem at all. There is a list, easily available to all professional athletes. If next year it says caffeine is illegal, stop drinking coffee. IF you don't want to dance on the edge of the grey area and risk the consequences (looking at you Essendon), just stick to taking no supplements and eat a healthy diet.

But eating a healthy diet could cause you problems..........what about Alberto's steak??

Seriously though I'm agreeing with the sentiment, I've been thinking of team punishment, if one person from Sky or Movistar (for example) tests positive at any time during the year the teams entire prizemoney for the year is recinded that gives the team an incentive to ensure their riders are clean from a business point of view (or it could kills the sport).

Maybe have some kind of mechanism that if a rider whistleblows on a team mate the above rule is modified somewhat to give the clean riders an incentive to out the cheats?

 

[fergo]

Isn't this the tdf thread? Make a new one for discussing drug taking cheating vs recreational and law entrance exams.

 

[Pastavore]

But eating a healthy diet could cause you problems..........what about Alberto's steak??

Seriously though I'm agreeing with the sentiment, I've been thinking of team punishment, if one person from Sky or Movistar (for example) tests positive at any time during the year the teams entire prizemoney for the year is recinded that gives the team an incentive to ensure their riders are clean from a business point of view (or it could kills the sport).

Maybe have some kind of mechanism that if a rider whistleblows on a team mate the above rule is modified somewhat to give the clean riders an incentive to out the cheats?

Absolutely, I think suspensions for whole teams when a rider is caught doping is an essential part of a good strategy. The sponsors would get pissed big time, and put a LOT of pressure on the team managers to control the riders.

At the moment, nearly every team is interested in appearing to be clean, but not interested in being clean. The positive exposure of good results far outways the negative exposure of the odd positive test. This needs to be rebalanced.

 

[pharmaboy]

I don't see that as a problem at all. There is a list, easily available to all professional athletes. If next year it says caffeine is illegal, stop drinking coffee. IF you don't want to dance on the edge of the grey area and risk the consequences (looking at you Essendon), just stick to taking no supplements and eat a healthy diet.

Actually, no there isn't an all inclusive list - compounds not yet identified by the authorities can still be found retrospectively to be banned. Bit like blood doping was - it wasn't specifically banned, until they discovered it.

Secondly, they can't test for most of the banned stuff anyway, so they provide guides as to what your blood profile should look like in regards to hormones and red blood cells etc. the very rules claiming to ban, give an implicit go ahead to get as close to the line as you can without going over.

Then you have various supplements that can misname what's in them, again that causes potentially innocent transgressions to become lifetime bans.

Just telling everyone to eat a healthy diet is a different era. Like it or not supplements, caffeine, nitrates, coNtrolled protein doses - these are everyday and ubiquitous in professional sport. You can't just wave a magic wand and make it all disappear - that's a Nancy Reaganism.

"Zero tolerance" is the line you are heading down - a term used by politicians to appeal to the Alan Jones listener. It doesn't work, it never has, and likely never will.

 

[redbruce]

Isn't this the tdf thread? Make a new one for discussing drug taking cheating vs recreational and law entrance exams.

Whether you like it or not, cheating via drug use is now (unfortunately) inexorably linked with the TDF (indeed until proven otherwise, cycle racing generally) and is therefore a valid discussion point for this thread.

 

[fergo]

Whether you like it or not, cheating via drug use is now (unfortunately) inexorably linked with the TDF (indeed until proven otherwise, cycle racing generally) and is therefore a valid discussion point for this thread.

Unfortunately you are correct, but the thread had become so general and off topic, it was not related at all to the TdF - hence my post. AND since this thread is almost dead, this post is probably irrelevant too!!!!

 

[0psi]

Unfortunately you are correct, but the thread had become so general and off topic, it was not related at all to the TdF - hence my post. AND since road cycling is almost dead, this post is probably irrelevant too!!!!

Fixed it for you :target:

 

[fergo]

Fixed it for you

Like :applouse:

 

[Cave Dweller]

Using this logic......

> Cycling is now dead as they use drugs

We can now conclusively say.......

> Rugby league is now dead as they use drugs
> AFL is now dead as they use drugs
> Baseball is now dead as they use drugs
> Running is now dead as they use drugs
> Cricket is dead because they use silicon on their bats

Do I need to go on about how silly that proposition is?

 

[0psi]

To be fair it's more the culture around doping in cycling that pisses me off to no end.

The Omerta can go chomp on a big fat cheesy wart infested dick. The riders (Like Bassons) have the power to rid the sport of drugs if they choose to but they don't. That pisses me off.

The general publics view towards dopers pisses me off to no end as well. Eddy Merckx was voted competitive cyclist of the century and is regarded as the greatest cyclist of all time by the cycling hall of fame yet he tested positive 3 times all while Lance Armstrong gets burned at the stake.
Speaking of Lance the majority of the world seemed pretty happy with Travis ignoring the statute of limitations to pursue him but all of a sudden there's no need to go digging up the past in regards to the 98 tour. The precedent was set, deal with it.

But all this doesn't really matter to me anymore because professional road cycling is dead to me, really couldn't care less if I tried. No idea what happened in the tour of Poland, I know it was on but that's about it. Didn't have even the slightest desire to watch it, haven't read an article on road cycling in weeks, apparently world champs are on soon, couldn't care. I'm still very happy riding my road bike and I'll continue to do so but as far as I'm concerned the pro cycling doesn't exist and for me it will remain that way until the riders start doing something themselves to clean up their own sport.

Rant over.

 

[Sumgy]

This is still going???
I stopped watching well before the finish.
Completely lost interest in it
The doctors you are quoting as saying Froome is clean are the same ones who made those allegations about Armstrong in some cases.

 

[c3024446]

The 2013 edition was fantastic. Shame this thread spiralled into this shitshow. If you want to talk doping head over to the roadbikereview doping sub forum.

Hopefully the 2014 thread is just about the racing. Froome to do back to back, an Aussie, not Porte, Rogers or Cadel to be in the top 10.

 

[Sumgy]

The 2013 edition was fantastic. Shame this thread spiralled into this shitshow. If you want to talk doping head over to the roadbikereview doping sub forum.

Hopefully the 2014 thread is just about the racing. Froome to do back to back, an Aussie, not Porte, Rogers or Cadel to be in the top 10.

Good luck with that.

 

[scblack]

The 2013 edition was fantastic. Shame this thread spiralled into this shitshow. If you want to talk doping head over to the roadbikereview doping sub forum.

Hopefully the 2014 thread is just about the racing. Froome to do back to back, an Aussie, not Porte, Rogers or Cadel to be in the top 10.

It is a shame this shitfight ensued.

Isn't it funny how so many people all of a sudden became armchair experts on doping after the Lance Armstrong affair? Other affairs such as Festina were also major events, but no-one placed such significance on the Ventoux times or whatever. The same people were not quoting those Ventoux times before but all of a sudden rider XX is quicker than rider JJ, so must be a doper.

The doping "culture" has long been known in cycling but it never caused such an emotive response before. Why did people not care so much in the very recent past, compared to now?