L'officiel Le Tour 2013 Thread!

[Sic]

If he'd denied it and then the truth had come out later?

No hes covering his own arse, this way he can say yep I screwed up, just once, all by my lonesome and not mess up his career prospects.

Look I dont think anyone should have to suffer forever for stuff they did when they were young and stupid but taking EPO is a pretty big stupid thing.

As an adult the only way ive moved on from my mistakes is to admit them and learn from them no matter how painful or detrimental that was, Pro cyclists seem incapable or unwilling to do this.

 

[pharmaboy]

I like a dobber, though I prefer the word "whistleblower". I think Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton should be recognised and applauded for reaching the point of total honesty. O'Grady is standing on his feet, telling 1/100th of the truth, ad not spitting in the soup so that has a chance of on ongoing career in cycling, THAT is self protection.

I .

Umm, are you holding Floyd Landis up as a whistleblower? Shirley you can't be serious.

Found positive a month after the tour, then lied and fought it in the courts for 4 years. 4 YEARS!!! All the while placing hand on the bible , and claiming spirituality makes him unable to cheat and lie.

Eventually after all those years denying, then getting reinstated, he sends an email not only admitting he doped but also accusing others ( big names only) of doping, and all this after not being able to get in another team was the rumour.

Not quite the top bloke and repentant individual I would say.

 

[Sic]

Lets not forget Landis started fundraising for his legal defence and took a stack of cash from his fans and 'true believers.'

Hamilton is no better, he only came out because he had to.

Bassons was the only rider tough enough to be properly outspoken and it ended his career.

 

[Cave Dweller]

If he'd denied it and then the truth had come out later?

No hes covering his own arse, this way he can say yep I screwed up, just once, all by my lonesome and not mess up his career prospects.

Look I dont think anyone should have to suffer forever for stuff they did when they were young and stupid but taking EPO is a pretty big stupid thing.

As an adult the only way ive moved on from my mistakes is to admit them and learn from them no matter how painful or detrimental that was, Pro cyclists seem incapable or unwilling to do this.

38% of Australians have taken an illicit drug in their life time http://www.aihw.gov.au/publication-detail/?id=6442467962

If you have, would you admit to it right now and go turn yourself into the police? Off course you wouldn't, you would lie through your teeth because it was a stupid mistake and it plays no bearing on who you are today.

 

[Pastavore]

Umm, are you holding Floyd Landis up as a whistleblower? Shirley you can't be serious.

Found positive a month after the tour, then lied and fought it in the courts for 4 years. 4 YEARS!!! All the while placing hand on the bible , and claiming spirituality makes him unable to cheat and lie.

Eventually after all those years denying, then getting reinstated, he sends an email not only admitting he doped but also accusing others ( big names only) of doping, and all this after not being able to get in another team was the rumour.

Not quite the top bloke and repentant individual I would say.

I am serious, and don't call me Shirley

Yep, he was a right cnut for many years, and now freely admits it. But when he finally came clean, he did it properly, and that is the bit I admire. And his efforts and honesty have resulted in the only possible chance of any reform in cycling ( and the whole olympic movement, really).

 

[Browndog77]

38% of Australians have taken an illicit drug in their life time http://www.aihw.gov.au/publication-detail/?id=6442467962

If you have, would you admit to it right now and go turn yourself into the police? Off course you wouldn't, you would lie through your teeth because it was a stupid mistake and it plays no bearing on who you are today.

Yeah sure I took some gear back in the day, but I didn't fraudulently take money from sponsors or mislead the public

 

[Sic]

38% of Australians have taken an illicit drug in their life time http://www.aihw.gov.au/publication-detail/?id=6442467962

If you have, would you admit to it right now and go turn yourself into the police? Off course you wouldn't, you would lie through your teeth because it was a stupid mistake and it plays no bearing on who you are today.

Thats not really an accurate comparison.

Its more like cheating on an exam and then getting into law school at someone elses expense who studied.

 

[Pastavore]

Lets not forget Landis started fundraising for his legal defence and took a stack of cash from his fans and 'true believers.'

Hamilton is no better, he only came out because he had to.

Bassons was the only rider tough enough to be properly outspoken and it ended his career.

Bassons is the man. End of story.

Hamilton I believe is a changed man since he chose to come thoroughly and completely clean. I don't in anyway defend the sustained lies for many years, but I do applaud doing the right thing in the end.

Hamilton and O'grady were both effectively forced to come clean. Hamilton did it properly, O'Grady did not.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Thats not really an accurate comparison.

Its more like cheating on an exam and then getting into law school at someone elses expense who studied.

More like taking a performance enhancing drug to pass. If your stupid no drug will help you. I guess all those HSC kids on Ritalin should be exposed and kicked out of university then

 

[Sic]

No its exactly like that. Maybe you dont test well because you panic but you think you'll make a good lawyer given a chance so you cheat on the exam to get into law school.

Maybe you can be a great rider given an extra little boost so you take some EPO and win a Tour stage or a classics race and all of a sudden you're a known racer who the sponsors have noticed and you're on your way.

Its cheating for advantage at the expense of someone elses career and financial gains.

Its not pulling some cones or popping a pill on the weekend.

 

[Browndog77]

No its exactly like that. Maybe you dont test well because you panic but you think you'll make a good lawyer given a chance so you cheat on the exam to get into law school.

Maybe you can be a great rider given an extra little boost so you take some EPO and win a Tour stage or a classics race and all of a sudden you're a known racer who the sponsors have noticed and you're on your way.

Its cheating for advantage at the expense of someone elses career and financial gains.

Its not pulling some cones or popping a pill on the weekend.

That's exactly what I said

 

[Sic]

Then carry on good sir!

Obviously I misunderstood your point.

 

[Cave Dweller]

No its exactly like that. Maybe you dont test well because you panic but you think you'll make a good lawyer given a chance so you cheat on the exam to get into law school.

Not at all.

I cant just go and take EPO and win the tour. You still need the ability, so your example of out right cheating is totally not valid. They are called performance enhancing drugs for a reason. Besides, research is inconclusive for EPO as far as cycling goes. Just google "EPO performance gain" to see this.

 

[harmonix1234]

38% of Australians have taken an illicit drug in their life time http://www.aihw.gov.au/publication-detail/?id=6442467962

If you have, would you admit to it right now and go turn yourself into the police? Off course you wouldn't, you would lie through your teeth because it was a stupid mistake and it plays no bearing on who you are today.

Everyone's had a stab at something. Except Mr Clinton, he didn't inhale.
The difference being that we all tried stuff for recreational purposes, and not to allow us to compete on a world stage whilst being sponsored and paid under the guise that we WEREN'T taking anything.

Basically, we all had nothing to lose, because we weren't gaining anything by doing it. They had the world to lose because they were making gains socially, financially, and competitively at the highest level.

 

[0psi]

More like taking a performance enhancing drug to pass. If your stupid no drug will help you. I guess all those HSC kids on Ritalin should be exposed and kicked out of university then

What the hell are you going on about man?

Taking drugs in life has nothing to do with taking performance enhancing drugs in racing. Taking drugs in sport is an attempt to gain an advantage, taking drugs in real life is purely for recreation or to aid an ailment. Speaking of which there are plenty of substances on the banned list that you are allowed to take if you have a condition, ie- asthma medication. Furthermore if you get caught taking drugs recreationally chances are you'll just get them confiscated and get a slap on the wrist, it's not like you'll lose your job and be banned from working for 2 years.

Sic's analogy of cheating on an exam is far more apt. Pretty sure if a lawyer was found to have cheated on his bar exam he'd be disqualified from practicing law but if it came to light that he smoked a bit of weed as a kid nothing would happen.

 

[DeBloot]

Everyone's had a stab at something. Except Mr Clinton, he didn't inhale.
The difference being that we all tried stuff for recreational purposes, and not to allow us to compete on a world stage whilst being sponsored and paid under the guise that we WEREN'T taking anything.

Basically, we all had nothing to lose, because we weren't gaining anything by doing it. They had the world to lose because they were making gains socially, financially, and competitively at the highest level.

True that

And we don't leave 1000's of fans disillusioned and disappointed when outed

 

[0psi]

And we don't leave 1000's of fans disillusioned and disappointed when outed

Speak for yourself! :bounce:

 

[Cave Dweller]

Sic's analogy of cheating on an exam is far more apt. Pretty sure if a lawyer was found to have cheated on his bar exam he'd be disqualified from practicing law but if it came to light that he smoked a bit of weed as a kid nothing would happen.

Disagree.

"Outright cheating" would be a 200kg bike rider, jumping in a team car and getting driven to the top of the mountain stage to claim victory. "Outright cheating" is taking the answers with you into an exam. Both require no natural ability.

"Performance enhancement cheating" is taking a drug that.... improves your natural performance ability in an exam or a bike race. Fair enough, it is also a form of cheating and gaining an unfair advantage but I dont think one is equivalent to the other. One requires talent the other does not.

Basically, we all had nothing to lose, because we weren't gaining anything by doing it. They had the world to lose because they were making gains socially, financially, and competitively at the highest level.

Yes, so what is the incentive for anyone to ever come clean about past mistakes unless presented with "undeniable" evidence? This was the point I was trying to make, everyone has secrets and has done stupid things they will not admit too freely as it is not reflective of who they are now. To say otherwise is hypocritical.

I know, I know, blah blah sports person blah blah public eye blah blah make money blah blah let me down blah blah somebody please think of the children.

No more from me.....

 

[0psi]

"Performance enhancement cheating" is taking a drug that.... improves your natural performance ability in an exam or a bike race. Fair enough, it is also a form of cheating and gaining an unfair advantage but I dont think one is equivalent to the other. One requires talent the other does not.

Okay I kinda see where you're going now. I still don't agree with it because I hardly think anyone walking into an exam would know nothing about what they were being tested on. Their cheating would be an attempt to gain an advantage over the competition in their line of work, much the same as a cyclist doping.

Lets leave that this one there because we'll never see eye to eye and it'll just keep going around in circles.

Moving on, here's a thought. What if those who knew about doping but did nothing about it were also punished? Point in case, Lance Armstrong. Never returned a positive for anything serious but everyone knew he was doing it. Why wait the better part of 15 years to come out and say it?

 

[Dene Dweller]

<snip>
Moving on, here's a thought. What if those who knew about doping but did nothing about it were also punished? Point in case, Lance Armstrong. Never returned a positive for anything serious but everyone knew he was doing it. Why wait the better part of 15 years to come out and say it?

I like it, the charge could be accessory to doping. The only time these guys admit their guilty is when they're backed into a corner, how many have come out and said yes I doped without the pending release of a report or their soon to be exposed involvement. The whole problem with these guys is the Omerta, it's a cultural change that's required but I don't see it happening any time soon.

I still think it should be a lifetime ban for first offence (riders, officials, managers etc). Sounds harsh but once the first couple of fools go the others might stop and think about what they are risking.